Howard, Tolkien and Lovecraft Comparative Studies (II)

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Raven Blackwell said:
No one mentioned Lieber though. How does the world of Lankhmar fated to end?
I only remember part of his stories but not the whole cycle. IIRC there was one where the heros try and success to cheat Death (incarnate). The best story I liked though was the novel with the rat's invasion of the city and the awakening of the "gods" of the city (who destroyed everything in their paths, friends & foes alike).
 
lovecrafts veiw seems to be that as a race we are the stain that needs to be removed unlike tolkeins etc its evil that gets its butt kicked :twisted:
 
what was the 3s view on industry tolken was against what sauron and sharkey did and most of lovecrafts lore comes from anicent tomes how did howard feel about industry :D
 
I don't recall him ever wrting anything directly about the industrial revolution and it's results but my guess is that he'd have lumped it with the rest of civilization: weaking to the strength of man. Remember the respective times the men lived though. Lovecraft and Howard existed at the very beginning of the 'modern age' and died before seeing a great deal of the chnages industralization would bring. Professor Tolkien lived longer and saw the massive changes WW II brought to the world and the beginning of the 'post-modern' age. So he had more to say about the process having seen more of the results of industrialization.

As far as know Leiber and Moorcock never really made it an issue though I remeber a lot of hellish sorcerous machines in Moorcock's Eternal Champion series I think.....Haven't read them in a long time.
 
in Moorcock's view, machines are instruments of law. Myshella, champion of law is given a mechanical bird.

Leiber's Fahfrd and Grey Mouser live in a med-fan setting so machine don't exist. Leiber wrote other independant novels but I didn't read them.
 
but in tolkiens take only the dark forces of the 2 towers use industry and invention is used for example to create super orcs or winged horrors while the good guys use only anicent lore nothing new comes from the good side apart from distroying evil does that strike others as odd it does me :shock:
 
Yeah, but the Good Guys in Tolkien's work are too good- so unambitious and rest contentedly whenever Evil is vanquished to do nothin to prevent it from arising again, frolicing about and eating large lunches. Thus no innovation in their 'ancient lore' i.e. Magic. Evil on the other hand is nothing but ambition so they prgoress in leaps in bounds- in the wrong direction creating technology and Sorcery that destroys themselves as well as the world around them. [Kinda like the Stygians] It's why I believe in balance: without ambition we are little more than hobbits waiting to get slaughtered and enslaved by whatever Dark Lord manages to overcome the fading forces of Sweetness and Light that like to pretend they are the 'Good Guys'. Takes a monster to fight a monster.
 
intreasting that they let a little guy take the ring their were lots of powerful elves at elronds retreat even if they were not carrying a elven ring but the high seemed far more worried that one of their own would have the power than the hobbits stuff it and elrond seemed to know that the ring was so bad frodos chance of taking it and not coming out very damaged were none.
 
toothill man said:
but in tolkiens take only the dark forces of the 2 towers use industry and invention is used for example to create super orcs or winged horrors while the good guys use only anicent lore nothing new comes from the good side apart from distroying evil does that strike others as odd it does me :shock:
Quite true! the good guys were conservative living among social customs existing for centuries and more (i.e. elves). Tolkien was probably a Torry :lol:
 
so are our favourite authors are saying technology is evil :shock: even lovecraft has technology freeing evil that only good magic can put back :shock:
 
Well I'm no one's favorite author and I say that too. 8) Come to think of it a lot of fantasy authors have anti-technology views. ANyone know of a fantasy author that doesn't?
 
moorcock does the elder races use science only foolish man calls it magic and gemmel has blending machines used for both good and bad :shock:
 
Never really got into Moorcock. If I read him again I'll have to look for that.

Hey- does anyone here mind adding the old Thieves World series to this discussion? I think that there's enough overlap between those stories an the lurid style Howard wrote in to warrant it. Who here read any of the old series?
 
have the complete series raven and it is good but will start re-reading them as was a few years since they had a dusting :shock:
 
I had several books by Moorcock but sold them all to purchase the orion omnibus series (thus I have now Elric in 2 books instead of 9).
 
toothill man said:
have the complete series raven and it is good but will start re-reading them as was a few years since they had a dusting :shock:

Thieves World was a fun ride while it lasted though due to the fact you had a changing roster of stories from different authors doing different things to each person's characters some of the plotlines got real tangled. ["Hey I killed your god!', "No you didn't he's just hiding in mind of a gypsy child." etc] But the feel of dark sorcery, a multiude of sins hidden by shadows and a lot of people trying to kill you with swords was familiar enough at least. Would have been nice if Hans Shadowspawn and Conan might have teamed up. Conan and Tempus would have hated each other on sight though. I can see Ischade and Roxanne going down in a fit of Crimson Mist fueled rage though. I'd miss Ischade. She brought class to being a near-succubus.....
 
Hey, I'll pop in and throw a bone. One other important thing concerning Lovecraft's view, yeah mankind is doomed, and willed be destroyed by the Elder Gods, but even more importantly -- mankind is SO insignificant that those gods won't even notice. Nor should they in Lovecraft's view.
 
Kazzigum said:
Hey, I'll pop in and throw a bone. One other important thing concerning Lovecraft's view, yeah mankind is doomed, and willed be destroyed by the Elder Gods, but even more importantly -- mankind is SO insignificant that those gods won't even notice. Nor should they in Lovecraft's view.

Well that depends on your point of view. If your are the sort of person who needs to believe that mankind is central and terribly important to the universe to beieve your own existence is valid then yeah that's terrifying. On the other hand if you are willing to accept that we are a smaller part of larger universe and that although humanity isn't the central part of anyone's master plan there's no reason to fret about that than I think you'll cope with things much better.
 
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