How to make Traveller more popular with TTRPG players

[rinku]

My big annoyance with GURPS has always been Imperial measurements. It's okay in pre-modern settings, but really jars in science based genres.

(Although, to be fair, SI units in a pre-modern setting are just as jarring.)

(Although decimal units as such aren't inherently an issue. The Ming dynasty used decimal units; their "inch" was roughly the same size as an Imperial inch, but their "foot" had ten of them. A fantasy setting that goes with ten knuckles to the Hilt is fine)

 

[MarcusIII]

There was so much "good but bad".

Megatraveller: Good, there's more Traveller. Good, there are some great sourcebooks. Good there's some good DGP books. Bad, they smashed the setting. Bad, they smashed the setting with a poorly thought out civil war that didn't make any sense, never resolved anything because there was nothing to resolve, and was this pointless upheaval, and for what?

TNE: Good, there's more Traveller. Good, FFS was great. Bad, they utterly destroyed the setting. Bad, the stupid virus. Bad, crappy art, worst Traveller art ever.

It's as if it never occurred the designers and so on that people might actually like CT's setting, and wouldn't want it vandalized, broken, and smashed by poorly thought out deus-ex-whatever flip the table excuses like magic computer viruses or empress waves or futile civil wars where nobody acts sensibly and nobody wins.

At least GURPS Traveller kept things going despite its problems. T4, whatever, I have it, but I forgot about it. T5... whatever.

I was in since '78 and basically feel the same. Mongoose 1 was the best edition since CT. I have a gut feeling that after MgT2 things are going to tail spin again. <sigh>

 

[rinku]

Nah. The fact that Mongoose took 8 years before issuing their revised edition (which for me was an across the board improvement in many small ways) and has stuck with that since (making a full 10 years of 2nd edition now) makes me confident we're good. The 2022 CRB update was almost all moving the ship construction rules back to CRB.

GDW revised in 1981 and radically changed editions in 1987. Mongoose 1st to 2nd is roughly about the same as GDW 1977 to 1981, in terms of change, so you could compare Classic Traveller's first four years to Mongoose's first eight, and CT's last 6 years to Mongoose's last 10. Except Mongoose has no reason not to stick with what we have. The rulebooks may get updated to fold in rules developed after they were published, trim back stuff better found in another book, or update the art when a new print run is needed, but I don't expect any major changes to CRB again.

 

[FreeTrav]

My big annoyance with GURPS has always been Imperial measurements. It's okay in pre-modern settings, but really jars in science based genres.

What was, IMO, even more annoying was that it was Imperial measurements for the US (or North American) editions only. Overseas editions were SI-ized. And the tradition in Traveller was already SI units, universally - Traveller never officially used Imperial units (except in GURPS Traveller «sigh»). This was an error in judgement of the SJG editorial team. The rationale was actually prima facia reasonable - except that for Traveller (and likely for Space) it was just plain wrong. Even for real life at the time those products were released.

(Although, to be fair, SI units in a pre-modern setting are just as jarring.)

(Although decimal units as such aren't inherently an issue. The Ming dynasty used decimal units; their "inch" was roughly the same size as an Imperial inch, but their "foot" had ten of them. A fantasy setting that goes with ten knuckles to the Hilt is fine)

I agree; it's not decimalized measurement systems, it's specifically the use of the SI unit names and prefixes that jar. If you want "ten hands to the cubit, ten cubits to the chain, 100 chains to the stadio" for your early-Roman-esque setting, that's fine. But don't try to tell me that your pseudo-Ming-Dynasty-pseudo-Chinese setting measured distances in kilometers and the weight/mass of gold ingots as currency in grams or kilograms.

It's barely acceptable to tell me that the gold chung weighed/massed "about ten grams" to give me a baseline for effective value (of both gold, and whatever you're buying with it), but pricing everything in grams of gold instead of "gold chungs" doesn't fly.

The reality is that I don't need to know about the ten-gram equivalent; all I need to know for the setting is that "silver chungs convert to gold chungs at 25 silver to 1 gold, and a cup of tea at a roadside inn costs half a silver chung". And similar equivalents for all of the other local units; "one heng is the distance a healthy person can walk without resting in one tenth of the period between sunrise and sunset".

 

[MarcusIII]

In ancient China the standard weights were Jin = ~9 ounces. 30 Jin = 1 Jun. 4 Jun = 1 Shi.
So it wasn't all decimalized.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Every copy of the 77 rules I have, which include UK and US printings, have that weird mix if imperial and metric.

 

[swordtart]

Well it is the third imperium

 

[Condottiere]

Usually, it would make sense, culturally, and presumably, have some logical consistency.

 

[actionman]

If you want "ten hands to the cubit

 

[rinku]

What was, IMO, even more annoying was that it was Imperial measurements for the US (or North American) editions only. Overseas editions were SI-ized. And the tradition in Traveller was already SI units, universally - Traveller never officially used Imperial units (except in GURPS Traveller «sigh»). This was an error in judgement of the SJG editorial team. The rationale was actually prima facia reasonable - except that for Traveller (and likely for Space) it was just plain wrong. Even for real life at the time those products were released.

Some overseas editions might have been, but they didn't see light of day here in Australia. I have a hunch there was never a metric version done in English. The Canadians and Brits probably got the Imperial unit books too.

Traveller almost never used Imperial units... but still has a legacy of the ONE instance of it from 1977 Book 3 - world size codes. Those were originally framed as 1000 mile units, and the vector based space combat also went with miles to the inch scale. 1981 revision and later editions reframed world size codes in terms of 1600km units, and reworked the vector combat scale in terms of km to the mm.

 

[rinku]

Mostly, a game might be better to ditch weights and measures and go with vaguer "encumbrance" limits. It's probably sufficient for an object to be classed as Light, Average or Heavy, based not on mass but how it encumbers.

Backpack bean counting has always annoyed me.

 

[Vormaerin]

If you make it central to the game, like in Torchbearer, and have good easy to use mechanics for it, then it can be an interesting source of choices and challenges. But when it's just an afterthought and things just have weight with no consideration for bulk or other factors that make it easy to weigh your choices, then it's kind of pointless.

 

[swordtart]

Car Wars "Grenade Equivalents" was simple and surprisingly workable for personal loadouts. The expanded system had a few issues and it got complicated once applied to vehicles and could lead to cheesing (due to players wanting to use every last pound of their vehicles load capacity and all vehicle crew weighing 150lb).

But it didn't differentiate between most pistols for example, all bar a couple of exceptions were 1 GE, and a person was able to wear 6 GE in pouches or holsters, carry two long arms on slings and certain items of equipment like Grenade Vests and Backpacks added to the basic GE limit, usually with a constraint on the size of the items carried and at a time penalty in how quickly it could be readied in combat. It specified if equipment was no-handed, one handed or two handed which determined if it was worn, could be held in a pouch/holster or needed a sling (and of course what could be ready simultaneously)

Usually player loadouts were plausible. It might be at the level of special forces or some pepper militiaman, but you wouldn't get, "I can carry 14 kg so I am carrying 28 hand grenades" (which is perfectly acceptable RAW for Traveller).

Not all equipment was correctly valued in Car Wars and led to portable heavy weapons for example being "better value" weight wise than their vehicle equivalent. As traveler vehicles are not concerned with weight that would be less of an issue.

 

[rinku]

Possibly the only rule you need is "explain to me how you're carrying all that" and assigning penalties based on your reaction to their reply:

Makes sense = no penalty
I'll allow it = minor penalty
If you insist = moderate penalty
Are you REALLY sure? = heavy penalty
Yeah, nah = no penalty, but they can't do that

 

[swordtart]

Certainly referee "eyeball" was the default mechanism for early Traveller, but modern players want agency (which usually means they want to do what they want without consequence). Having a stated rule makes it one less argument for the referee and reduces the incidence of adventures that turn into shopping trips.

 

[Vormaerin]

Agency does not mean "do what I want" for most players. It means they want enough information to actually make plans and decisions instead of guessing and then asking the DM if they guessed right. "Shopping trip" sessions happen because the players can't make informed decisions without constantly asking the DM.

 

[swordtart]

I obviously haven't been lucky enough to play with most players.

Many of my players were as I have described. I have been told by another referee on a online game session that one of his players was painting figures during the game, one was watching TV and a third actually confessed mid session that he was making dinner as he had house guests. I have had another player in a game time out the game for 30 minutes for an emergency, which he later told us was because his pizza had been delivered.

You flesh bags make no sense

 

[Wicked Cool Games]

Following

 

[Endie]

Following

Look, we get that you want to be able to post links to the stuff you want to sell, but spamming threads with "+1"-style posts like "following" doesn't say that you want to be in, or contribute to, the community. It just says that you want to game it so you can advertise to us.

If you must post a bunch, go to your TAS thread that you posted and entice us with snippets from your product that show how good it is: a piece of art; a fun character.

 

[AndrewW]

I obviously haven't been lucky enough to play with most players.

Many of my players were as I have described. I have been told by another referee on a online game session that one of his players was painting figures during the game, one was watching TV and a third actually confessed mid session that he was making dinner as he had house guests. I have had another player in a game time out the game for 30 minutes for an emergency, which he later told us was because his pizza had been delivered.

You flesh bags make no sense

One of the two online games I'm in, I have no idea what the other players are doing but can be 20+ minutes between posts, or had one recent one where it went 1 hour and 8 minutes with nobody except myself and the one running the game saying anything. So yes for that game I am usually doing something else on the computer, but am still right here the majority of the time and check into the game chat anytime there is something new and respond as needed. Now the other game (which I was told was slow) is like a Hop drive compared to a flaky J-1 drive for the other one.

Who you calling a flesh bag?