How to make Traveller more popular with TTRPG players

[MarcusIII]

After playing all sorts of RPGs for over 47 years on two continents I think Traveller needs a change.

The rules need to be separated from the setting. This is crucial.
New settings need to be created. Imagine if since day one basically, D&D was embedded into only one setting and the rules deeply mired in that one world. It would have missed out on attracting and keeping a boat load of players & GMs.

Too much resources go to the existing setting. The game needs to evolve away from that and expand its horizons. 3rd party developers need to be recruited. And the 3I is too straitjacketed.

Remember Ballmer's speech where he gave the secret to Microsoft's growth: Developers, developers, developers.

 

[MasterGwydion]

After playing all sorts of RPGs for over 47 years on two continents I think Traveller needs a change.

The rules need to be separated from the setting. This is crucial.

Agreed.

New settings need to be created.

They did that, but they messed it up at the same time by changing the rules, so the Traveler CRB is not the CRB for these other worlds.

Imagine if since day one basically, D&D was embedded into only one setting and the rules deeply mired in that one world. It would have missed out on attracting and keeping a boat load of players & GMs.

See above

Too much resources go to the existing setting. The game needs to evolve away from that and expand its horizons. 3rd party developers need to be recruited. And the 3I is too straitjacketed.

I argue the opposite. Not enough resources are being spent on quality control. If it stops putting out Charted Space products, I will likely not buy anymore Traveller products, the same way I no longer buy Dungeons & Dragons after 3.5/PF1. Once they nuked their setting, I didn't enjoy it anymore. They took something that was beloved, and wrecked it in the name of making more money. If Mongoose does the same thing, the same thing will happen.

Remember Ballmer's speech where he gave the secret to Microsoft's growth: Developers, developers, developers.

You mean theft, theft, theft?

 

[AndrewW]

You mean theft, theft, theft?

I would have said illegal licensing agreements.

 

[MarcusIII]

I would have said illegal licensing agreements.

nothing illegal about attacking developers. Why would you sign an "illegal" licensing agreement?

Anyway back to the topic; Traveller is stale and needs a more reach into different player demographics.

 

[Endie]

It's just possible that what the people on this hellforum want - what players with decades of experience with traveller, many of whom never actually play the game with other people, constantly demand - is not what drives sales to new players.

There are maybe thirty people posting semi-regularly on this forum, with perhaps seven people posting as much as everyone else put together, largely with the same, repeated complaint (I don't mean you, MarcusIII) Mongoose, who have brought the game to its highest level of commercisal success since the golden age of CT, would have to be mad as a sack of badgers to base their marketing on what the denizens of this place incessantly demand.

Personally, I'd try for a Lost Mine of Phandelver-style sandbox starter box set which starts in a constrained area on a single planet and contains a series of classic trope mini-scenarios before introducing the party to space with a small-ship journey, a fight, getting a ship that needs repaired (with further adventures building around that) etc. But I'm probably insanely missing something because I work closely with Marketing and am constantly amazed at how differently they see the world from my division.

 

[MarcusIII]

is not what drives sales to new players.

But, not likely

 

[Vormaerin]

The only correct answer is "Make it a fantasy RPG". Because there are no significantly popular space opera games. The most popular is a Star Wars, which as a fraction of the TTRPG community is still quite small.

Where Traveller ranks amongst the numerous tiny slivers is unclear, but Mothership and Stars Without Number are probably the only ones competitive with it that isn't a major media tie in product in. And SWN is basically practically a D&D spinoff. Traveller sure seems to put out a lot of products compared to most, so that suggests it has an audience.

Traveller also does have 3rd party developers and multiple settings. Most, though not all, of the more prolific 3rd party developers prefer to use the license to make their own games rather than "Traveller settings". But they are at least as compatible with Traveller as the 2300 setting is. Mothership may have more 3rd party support, but that's because Mothership adventures are super inexpensive to make.

As far as other settings go, they have 2300. They allowed Mindjammer to license a Traveller edition. They are coming out with Pioneer. They are making Dark Conspiracy compatible with Traveller.

Sure, they should do a better job of separating the core rules out. But otherwise, this thread so far seems to be a lot of "Do the stuff you are doing."

Traveller was practically off the map before Mongoose took it up. It's back in the top discussed and supported space games now.

Can the marketing be better? Sure, marketing can always be better. Mongoose is aware that they need to do better at marketing, as was extensively discussed in the recent State of the Mongoose.

Telling them to stop selling very popular products like Charted Space is silly. Acting like they aren't expanding the brand already is even sillier.

 

[MarcusIII]

The only correct answer is "Make it a fantasy RPG". Because there are no significantly popular space opera games.

A new setting is needed NOT a copy of an existing one. Just like D&D made new settings from whole cloth. And, "Do the stuff you are doing." is also very wrong. They aren't doing anything I'm saying to do in any real degree. Where did you get that from?

 

[Endie]

But, not likely

Have a look at how customer personas are used in marketing, if you don't understand the vital importance of what I said.

 

[MarcusIII]

I've run a large multi national company for many years. My marketing experience exceeds yours by many times.

There seems to be a huge push back from many on here to expanding Traveller's player base. An interesting phenomenon indeed.

 

[Endie]

Your third and fourth sentences demonstrate why most would be very quizzical about your first and second sentences…

 

[MarcusIII]

Your third and fourth sentences demonstrate why most would be very quizzical about your first and second sentences…

no need to be so adverse to making Traveller more popular

 

[Vormaerin]

lol. A couple people saying your ideas are not impressing them is not pushback against expanding the player base.

Mongoose HAS significantly expanded the playerbase. It has brought in many new players and it has recalled many lapsed players. It is expanding the application of Traveller rules to other settings, whether you like those settings or not. And it has reached licensing agreements with a number of third party developers in ways Traveller hasn't had since the 1980s.

D&D didn't ditch the Forgotten Realms when it added a bunch of less popular settings to the repertoire. The FR is still by far the most popular D&D setting. Charted Space is going to continue to be significant in Traveller sales even with other settings getting added.

Sci fi is so broad that it has very few significant "multipurpose" games. The vast majority of offerings in the genre are highly specific: "We do Star Wars or Star Trek or Aliens" or some other very narrow focused setting, commercial or self created.

Traveller does need to make it more clear that it is that rare multi-purpose sci fi game. But it looks to me like Mongoose is pushing that pretty well by making Traveller compatible versions of 2300, Pioneer, Dark Conspiracy, and the like.

Lost Mines of Phandelver was mentioned earlier but that's just an FR product at the end of the day. A starter set with something like the Borderlands would be comparable.

 

[mavikfelna]

I would like to see better separation of the setting from the rules. And much better editing and control of those rules. I like Charted Space and want to keep playing in it. There is alot of good product out for it and some good ones coming up. But the rules are a mess and Matt has said they don't want strict rules control because it constrains the writers. They also are quite willing to ignore or change canon even when it doesn't need changing and that is a problem for me.

But, they using the ruleset they have in a new setting, Pioneer, right now. That's good and I really hope it succeeds. I backed it for just that reason. They are making their other settings more compatible as well. So do we more settings on top of this, or just more marketing?

 

[Sigtrygg]

After playing all sorts of RPGs for over 47 years on two continents I think Traveller needs a change.

I agree, and there are two big ones coming, Pioneer and Dark Conspiracy. Matt has also hinted at a future space opera setting, but that is a long way off.

The rules need to be separated from the setting. This is crucial.

I agree up to a point. I think Traveller could do with a stripped down version of the rules that you could point the people at rpgnet towards, the ones who keep asking for a sci fi game to run their setting idea. The consensus there is that Traveller is the Third Imperium and nothing more.

New settings need to be created. Imagine if since day one basically, D&D was embedded into only one setting and the rules deeply mired in that one world. It would have missed out on attracting and keeping a boat load of players & GMs.

Many new settings have been created, for Cepheus and 2d6 sci fi - the dangers of OGL and SRDs...

Too much resources go to the existing setting. The game needs to evolve away from that and expand its horizons. 3rd party developers need to be recruited. And the 3I is too straitjacketed.

The Imperium suffers from being defined by previous canon, new people are often put off by that, the daft thing is the Third Imperium is also a popular feature, Mongoose makes money from the setting. Looking at the numbers that back the kickstarters there are around a thousand, then drive thru numbers for Traveller books are consistently in the high sellers - which again is odd, why not buy direct from Mongoose?

Remember Ballmer's speech where he gave the secret to Microsoft's growth: Developers, developers, developers.

A new setting would require considerable development - Pioneer is nearing launch, Dark Conspiracy next year.

 

[Endie]

lol. A couple people saying your ideas are not impressing them is not pushback against expanding the player base.

Mongoose HAS significantly expanded the playerbase. It has brought in many new players and it has recalled many lapsed players. It is expanding the application of Traveller rules to other settings, whether you like those settings or not. And it has reached licensing agreements with a number of third party developers in ways Traveller hasn't had since the 1980s.

D&D didn't ditch the Forgotten Realms when it added a bunch of less popular settings to the repertoire. The FR is still by far the most popular D&D setting. Charted Space is going to continue to be significant in Traveller sales even with other settings getting added.

Sci fi is so broad that it has very few significant "multipurpose" games. The vast majority of offerings in the genre are highly specific: "We do Star Wars or Star Trek or Aliens" or some other very narrow focused setting, commercial or self created.

Traveller does need to make it more clear that it is that rare multi-purpose sci fi game. But it looks to me like Mongoose is pushing that pretty well by making Traveller compatible versions of 2300, Pioneer, Dark Conspiracy, and the like.

Lost Mines of Phandelver was mentioned earlier but that's just an FR product at the end of the day. A starter set with something like the Borderlands would be comparable.

Funnily enough I did type then delete Keep on the Borderlands: I’ve not purchased the new WotC Borderlands product so can’t speak about that, but Phandelver was a key element in the success of 5e which can’t really be doubted, for all that I’m rather weary of it myself.

Also, be more respectful when you critique the ideas of Marcus: he was CEO of Boeing and has previously gone into detail regarding his extensive interactions with aliens.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Sci fi is so broad that it has very few significant "multipurpose" games. The vast majority of offerings in the genre are highly specific: "We do Star Wars or Star Trek or Aliens" or some other very narrow focused setting, commercial or self created.

Traveller does need to make it more clear that it is that rare multi-purpose sci fi game. But it looks to me like Mongoose is pushing that pretty well by making Traveller compatible versions of 2300, Pioneer, Dark Conspiracy, and the like.

This.

 

[Vormaerin]

Keep on the Borderlands seems like the opposite of what Marcus is proposing. It's hardcore grognard bait, reusing the very first adventure from the old D&D boxed set.

It would be really nice for more people to realize that you can run Traveller with your own setting. But that runs against the industry trends, where most people seem to WANT a prefab setting (why Charted Space was created in the first place) and the fact that almost every sci fi game out there is focused on a single setting. SWON makes a big deal of letting you make your own setting, but it also has a published setting for it. Basically everything else is "Here's a setting with some rules for it" rather than "Here's some rules that let you make a setting".

And considering that the first comment you get about Traveller when you mention it is a meme about dying in Chargen, which hasn't been the rule in over 30 years, I can see how it'll be hard to break out.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Keep on the Borderlands seems like the opposite of what Marcus is proposing. It's hardcore grognard bait, reusing the very first adventure from the old D&D boxed set.

It would be really nice for more people to realize that you can run Traveller with your own setting. But that runs against the industry trends, where most people seem to WANT a prefab setting (why Charted Space was created in the first place) and the fact that almost every sci fi game out there is focused on a single setting. SWON makes a big deal of letting you make your own setting, but it also has a published setting for it. Basically everything else is "Here's a setting with some rules for it" rather than "Here's some rules that let you make a setting".

It is easy to see the reason for that. How many rule books can you really put out before you have too many rules? Maybe 5 or 6? If you build a setting, how many setting books can you put out? Hundreds? Thousands? That is where companies make their money, on their settings, not their rules. It is why I am a big proponent of well-written, internally-consistent rules books. Once a publisher has those, they can devote all of their attention to crafting beautiful and detailed settings.

Seems to be pretty much what Mongoose is doing, with the exception of the internally-consistent part, and I definitely support them in that.

(but also yes, Traveller is a great system to build your own setting in as well and I hope it continues to be that for decades to come. )

 

[FreeTrav]

I agree that player uptake of Traveller needs to be increased. Where there seems to be disagreement - and I have no opinion on who's right - is on how to increase that uptake.

I definitely agree that The Rules need to be divorced from The Setting; I don't necessarily believe that that's the fundamental problem. More likely, in my view as a person with two eyes (in spite of having been called "four eyes" in grade school), is that while both Epic Fantasy (as represented most notably by Tolkien's Middle Earth) and Science Fiction (as represented by ... a whole lot of things, but probably most notably Star Trek and Star Wars) have always been marginalized as literature - but SF more so than Epic Fantasy (for reasons unknown to me).

That marginalization carries over into TTRPGs, and the "Satanic Panic" of the 1980s that focussed on the "evils" of D&D indirectly contaminated all TTRPGs. While I do not see active anathemization of TTRPGs at present, I don't believe the industry ever truly "threw off" the stigma. There was also the question of budgets; TSR budgeted more in support of D&D even in those early days than GDW ever did for Traveller; for the latter, Traveller was a sideline - their primary focus was on wargames (of the type that I called "infernal hexagon games", because they were - in my view - overly complicated, and always played on hex-marked battlemaps). When SweetPea Entertainment/Imperium Games was the primary Traveller licensee, they made a hash of it because they were more interested in the possibilities of using Traveller as a TV/movie property, not in supporting the TTRPG. Today, D&D has the money and marketing of Hasbro behind it; I don't see any other TTRPGs able to compete.

Another thing that hurt Traveller specifically (and, IMO, still does to some extent) is that there isn't a well-promoted tie-in setting for any of the major SF properties - no Star Trek: The Traveller Edition, no Traveller: Star Wars, no Traveller: Serenity, not even Traveller: 1999 or Traveller: The Time Lords or a continuation of the short-lived Babylon 5 for Traveller. Sure, fans can do homebrews of any or all of them - and have; the current Freelance Traveller even reviews one of those homebrews (for Star Trek), but without that official support from both the IP owner and Mongoose (or some other TTRPG publisher, the bigger the better), SF TTRPGs are just not going to have the exposure.