How long does spacecraft maintenance take?

BP said:
The monthly maintenance expressly requires a shipyard.

So much for military operations, then. Or even reasonably distant exploratory trading.

This is one of those "changes for the sake of change" that alters the OTU in fundamental ways. Even (or especially) the Spinward Marches changes quite a bit if you have to visit a B or A port *every month*.
 
GypsyComet said:
This is one of those "changes for the sake of change" that alters the OTU in fundamental ways.
Only if you let it change the OTU. :)

You can just as well rule that any ship with a "workshop" can do the main-
tenance "in the wilds", provided the ship's owner has purchased the ne-
cessary materials (see maintenance costs) and allocated at least one ton
of cargo space for them.

Remember, rules are just proposals, not court sentences. :)
 
rust said:
GypsyComet said:
This is one of those "changes for the sake of change" that alters the OTU in fundamental ways.
Only if you let it change the OTU. :)

You can just as well rule that any ship with a "workshop" can do the main-
tenance "in the wilds", provided the ship's owner has purchased the ne-
cessary materials (see maintenance costs) and allocated at least one ton
of cargo space for them.

Remember, rules are just proposals, not court sentences. :)

For the guys playing the game, yes. For the guys *publishing* the game, however, rules is rules.
 
GypsyComet said:
For the guys *publishing* the game, however, rules is rules.
I am almost convinced that even they will have to get used to a "soft"
approach to rules, because no possible set of core rules could fit all
the announced Traveller settings equally well.

Therefore I consider the core rules only as a kind of very basic set of
"general" rules that has to be modified for each of the settings, from
the Third Imperium down to my own homegrown setting.
 
GypsyComet said:
BP said:
The monthly maintenance expressly requires a shipyard.

So much for military operations, then. Or even reasonably distant exploratory trading.

This is one of those "changes for the sake of change" that alters the OTU in fundamental ways. Even (or especially) the Spinward Marches changes quite a bit if you have to visit a B or A port *every month*.
The rule only requires that maintenance be done each month to avoid the chance of damage due to lack of maintenance, with DMs accruing for each missed month.

So it 'tweaks' the OTU a bit, but I don't think it bends it :) .

The premise is reasonable, but I think it’s a little flawed in execution. Maintenance DMs should be based on use – i.e. trips. And it should work the other way around – there is always a chance on every trip that there can be problems – check each trip and apply DMs for having done maintenance. And just because somebody paid for maintenance doesn’t mean there should be no problems (heck there’s a decent chance there would be more problems).

Furthermore, I think the expertise of the engineering crew should play a part in whether the damage occurs or is avoided.

(Of course, I just got my books yesterday – so I'm counting on others to point out my misconceptions :wink: )
 
Having now had the time and the book in hand, I can see where this mechanic is going. Except for the "maintenance must be carried out in a shipyard" part, I actually like it.

In previous incarnations, the shipyard requirement was an annual thing, but ships would indeed build up negative DMs over months and years (depending on system) after that first year.

On further examination of the MGT rules on pages 138, 143, 149, and 150, the whole mess is intended to be another way to separate PCs from their money, but is incompletely written.

The Maintenance failure roll refers to damage to "systems", but the tables we are referred to on page 150 are for battle damage and do not limit themselves to what they *also* refer to as "systems", but rather also include hull and structure. The repair rules on page 149 and 143 continue to separate "systems" from hull and structure.

In the face of this, and taking the dangerous nature of space flight into account, I'm inclined to toss the DM per month mentioned on page 138 as a DM on the 8+ roll for mishap. Instead, that 8+ roll happens every month of active ship use with no DM.

So where does the DM go? On the System Degradation table. Yes, letting your maintenance schedule lapse is asking for trouble...

From there, we head to page 150. While combat offers a procedure for determining which damage table to roll on, the degradation procedure offers no such guidance. Fine. Roll even-odd for internal vs external tables. We want stuff on both tables, and space is dangerous, so...

Roll each point of damage determined on the System Degradation table separately, and determine internal damage vs external damage separately as well.

Now we get back to performed maintenance. If you are current and up to date on your continual maintenance, make an appropriate skill check for the damaged item. If successful, this damage does not occur or is dealt with very quickly, as you caught the warning signs during maintenance activities and took appropriate action. If your roll fails or you aren't current on your maintenance, the equipment failure, hull breach, or structural issue catches you by surprise and moves to the Combat Repair (page 149) and long term repair (page 143) procedures. This "surprise" can be un-heralded equipment failure, or a micro-meteor strike, or simply not noticed during its lead up.

It will be up to the Referee to determine whether a month's crises are spread out or occur all at once. A point of hull damage and two hits to the maneuver drive sounds like a perfect opportunity to inflict all three at the same time, while scattered equipment failures seem to make more sense if spread out.

To answer this topic's original question for this modification of the rules, continual maintenance is a full time job, give or take a little, for one person per fifty tons of drives, weaponry, screens, bridge, electronics, subcraft, and other "gadgets" installed. Cargo, fuel, and staterooms are not counted in this total as such, but are still assumed to be covered.

Annual maintenance, which is the part that requires a starport, takes two weeks of down time and is considered a full-time job for the normal crew complement (whether they hire a shipyard crew to do it for them is another matter).

Continual maintenance has no intrinsic Cr cost attached unless something breaks. Annual maintenance costs the listed 0.1% of the ship's list price.


Feedback welcome, not that I can stop you. :D
 
GypsyComet said:
Having now had the time and the book in hand, I can see where this mechanic is going. Except for the "maintenance must be carried out in a shipyard" part, I actually like it.
...
To answer this topic's original question for this modification of the rules, continual maintenance is a full time job, give or take a little, for one person per fifty tons of drives, weaponry, screens, bridge, electronics, subcraft, and other "gadgets" installed. Cargo, fuel, and staterooms are not counted in this total as such, but are still assumed to be covered.

Annual maintenance, which is the part that requires a starport, takes two weeks of down time and is considered a full-time job for the normal crew complement (whether they hire a shipyard crew to do it for them is another matter).

Continual maintenance has no intrinsic Cr cost attached unless something breaks. Annual maintenance costs the listed 0.1% of the ship's list price.
Just to clarify, that last part is original CT rules - in answer to the first of the questions in the original post. (I presume)

On the fence about the 'shipyard' requirement. Seems reasonable for certain repairs/inspections (like its difficult to comprehensively inspect/repair a vehicle in a driveway as opposed to on a lift at a shop).

The arbitrary month thing versus each trip is what seems the most off for me – if the ship is idle/hangar-ed for 3 months, I don’t think the DM’s are reasonable (at least cumulatively), not that there is any problem adjusting for this, but it actually takes less money from your players that way!
 
BP said:
On the fence about the 'shipyard' requirement. Seems reasonable for certain repairs/inspections (like its difficult to comprehensively inspect/repair a vehicle in a driveway as opposed to on a lift at a shop).

The arbitrary month thing versus each trip is what seems the most off for me – if the ship is idle/hangar-ed for 3 months, I don’t think the DM’s are reasonable (at least cumulatively), not that there is any problem adjusting for this, but it actually takes less money from your players that way!

I used the phrase "per month of active use" at one point. Consider that for typical use, that's one DM per two trips (or per one round trip) which is just as useful an interval as "per trip".

I might consider modifiers for Tech Level of construction, and a different time interval for "benign neglect" and "you left it parked WHERE!?!". Too much of this sort of thing smacks of needless detailing, however. Gorgeously detailed mechanics that take all expected cases into account but which never get used are really just fodder for the armchair admirals. I'd rather play the game.
 
GypsyComet said:
I might consider modifiers for Tech Level of construction, and a different time interval for "benign neglect" and "you left it parked WHERE!?!". Too much of this sort of thing smacks of needless detailing, however. Gorgeously detailed mechanics that take all expected cases into account but which never get used are really just fodder for the armchair admirals. I'd rather play the game.

Sorry admiral sir I know I shouldn't have left it parked in the red light district like that but you see I really had to go, uhhh to the head sir and the one onboard was occupied so I made a quick stop. I didn't know that the ship would be covered in graffiti by the time I came out or the radar mast would have a bobblehead of the emperor.
 
rust said:
You can just as well rule that any ship with a "workshop" can do the main-
tenance "in the wilds", provided the ship's owner has purchased the ne-
cessary materials (see maintenance costs) and allocated at least one ton
of cargo space for them.

I just looked through CT book 2 and 5, and MgT Core and High Guard. In none of these books could I find an Engineering Workshop. I don't have New Era or T4 to look in. I do have a copy of T20 and it has an Engineering Shop of 6 tons.

I think a ship with an Engineering Workshop would be able to perform monthly maintenance without having to rely on a class A or B starport. Annual maintenance would still require a class A or B starport.

You still have to calibrate the calibration equipment and that requires a third party.
 
BP said:
Pass a safety and customs inspections..
:shock: Man what a harsh TU!
Not really, in my setting the procedure at the colony's starport begins
with a health inspection which is followed by a security service inspec-
tion (a combination of safety inspection, customs inspection and immi-
gration inspection), and the captain needs the ship's papers (especially
the ship's registry), his license and full crew, passenger and cargo ma-
nifests.

If there is any problem, for example a lack of maintenance of the ship,
the ship in question remains grounded until the problem is solved. :twisted:
 
whtknght said:
rust said:
You can just as well rule that any ship with a "workshop" can do the main-
tenance "in the wilds", provided the ship's owner has purchased the ne-
cessary materials (see maintenance costs) and allocated at least one ton
of cargo space for them.

I just looked through CT book 2 and 5, and MgT Core and High Guard. In none of these books could I find an Engineering Workshop. I don't have New Era or T4 to look in. I do have a copy of T20 and it has an Engineering Shop of 6 tons.

I think a ship with an Engineering Workshop would be able to perform monthly maintenance without having to rely on a class A or B starport. Annual maintenance would still require a class A or B starport.

You still have to calibrate the calibration equipment and that requires a third party.

MegaTraveller described the annual maintenance process as calibration, large-scale check-ups you just can't do easily (or at all) on a ship in flight, and replacement of a significant collection of short-life parts in the drives and throughout the ship. Assuming you are always ready to go and never really cool down completely, the annual maintenance was the one time each year your power plant was taken completely offline down to cold.
 
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