How far do Ship sensors work to?

[Vormaerin]

lol. Civilian ships with "qualified" sensor ops (which aren't required) can barely see unstealthed ships if they aren't blaring their transponder. It's less than 50/50 for a Sensor 1 guy to spot a parked ship with its transponder in quiet mode. 8+ base, -2 for civilian sensors, +1 for Power Plant, +1 for skill.

Anyway, the point is that the more we assume the military has these highly specialized augmented characters just to do their basic jobs (like Jump 4 astrogation, spotting sneaky bad guys), the bigger the disconnect with the PCs who theoretically had these careers, but went through a chargen that is extremely unlikely to produce such characters.

 

[Condottiere]

Retention bonus.

 

[Nelphine]

Honestly, i think rolling up 20 to 50 characters, and then choosing the one you want to play makes the most sense. The military will have thousands of candidates to choose from, which is why we can make those assumptions.

So yes, a stealth ship is almost certainly not going to be seen by random pc free trader. But the stealth hull itself is going to be worth more than everything a random pc free traded party owns combined, so thats fine.

Putting a stealth ship against non military targets, is the equivalent of sending an adult dragon against a level 1 party - of course it will 'win'. Thats a feature, not a bug.

 

[Vormaerin]

I'm just saying that the more we create mechanics that require the NPCs to be radically different than the outcome of the supposed career system, the more problematic it becomes. If you create a need for high rolls for day to day tasks, that's not ideal.

 

[Condottiere]

Skill specialization is not compatible with randomization.

 

[Nelphine]

Sure. But day to day for sensors, is seeing someone blaring their transponder. Thats why its a law investigation roll if youre caught not doing that.

Trying to see another civilian ship with no transponder, using a standard civilian free trader without a super specialist sensor operator, is the equivalent of trying to see an oncoming black car at night which has no headlights on.

Turn the damn headlights (transponder) on. Theres a reason its the law.

 

[tytalan]

@Vormaerin yes the average ship in the 3ed imperium is TL 12 but it’s the system itself not the ships tech level so military grade sensors are tech 10 not 12 which mean -10 now if you where talking improved or advance sensors you wouldn’t have that great a negative but just military which are tech 10 yes it is a -10

 

[Vormaerin]

lolwhat? You think the Imperium is using the same sensors on their TL 15 battleships as some TL 10 backwater planetary navy? TL is the minimum it can appear at, not the only level it can appear at. Ships systems are going to be built at the TL of the ship. It costs extra if you want an improved version because of the higher tech level. But the Tigress' "military grade" sensors are TL 15. The best sensors in the game are available at TL 12. So "Advanced stealth" is really -8? yeah, no. Otherwise, you get some really really dumb effects.

And just as an example:

COMPUTER TECH LEVELS
Note that the listed Tech Level of a computer is the minimum at which a given computer model is available. The operating Tech Level is that of the
starship in which it is installed;

There may not be that exact language in for every system, but that's how I understand the overall system working.

 

[tytalan]

lolwhat? You think the Imperium is using the same sensors on their TL 15 battleships as some TL 10 backwater planetary navy? TL is the minimum it can appear at, not the only level it can appear at. Ships systems are going to be built at the TL of the ship. It costs extra if you want an improved version because of the higher tech level. But the Tigress' "military grade" sensors are TL 15. The best sensors in the game are available at TL 12. So "Advanced stealth" is really -8? yeah, no. Otherwise, you get some really really dumb effects.

And just as an example:

COMPUTER TECH LEVELS
Note that the listed Tech Level of a computer is the minimum at which a given computer model is available. The operating Tech Level is that of the
starship in which it is installed;

There may not be that exact language in for every system, but that's how I understand the overall system working.

You think every ship is going to be an expensive tech level 15? Battleships are going to have Advanced Military sensors which is a different case from the one I presented. Lol
Maybe actually look at the listed tech level of ships in HighGuard and the core rule book. Every ship in the crb is TL 12. Ships often have systems of lower TL otherwise just about every laser on a ship would have multiple TL upgrades. Ships tend to be the minimum for the jump drive or tech level 12. A tech level 10 world is not going to have a bunch of tech level 15 ships they can’t maintain it. Weapons systems, power plants, M-Drive, J-Drive all are installed at base TL unless upgraded. There’s a whole section on TL upgrades for those.

While I would agree that a ship sensors are more than likely at the ships TL but a TL 12 military/security ship is probably going to have improved military sensors which was not the case I presented.

 

[Condottiere]

In the military, there's going to be a lot of autonomous probing.

 

[AndrewW]

In the military, there's going to be a lot of autonomous probing.

That's for the humans the aliens abduct.

 

[ottarrus]

The real question here isn't 'how far the sensors go' but rather 'how much of the data is useful'.

Now, we're all guessing what the tactical environment will be in a supposed future where J-Drives and Gravitic maneuver drives exist. We don't have to plot reaction mass burn times, heat plumes, or delta-V. This makes things both more and less complicated.
There are two basic choices in electronic warfare: to emit a signal or not.
- If you emit a signal [using radar, lidar, etc] it's like turning on a flashlight in a dark theater... everybody can pinpoint where you are but the information you receive will the far more accurate.
- If you choose not to emit, you have to work much harder to detect a threat and be very smart with your guesses of where to move your ship and confirm your detection. OTOH, getting the kill shot off before the enemy even knows you're there is something that every ship commander dreams of, the pinnacle of the art of ship v ship warfare. Not only that, but it's MUCH safer for your ship and crew.

The next thing to understand is that your data is only traveling at the speed of light. While 'c' is impossibly fast, it can seem glacial when you're the sensor operator with an XO shouting in your ear for a target solution. In Traveller electronic warfare, light seconds count.

A light second is about 300,000 km [it's exactly 299,792,458 m]. By the time a ship has gotten this close to you, a competent sensor operator will have detected it and is well on their way to identifying it. And he'd better be quick about it- - that light second is only 6 times Distant range for a spinal mount!

 

[Vormaerin]

You think every ship is going to be an expensive tech level 15? Battleships are going to have Advanced Military sensors which is a different case from the one I presented. Lol
Maybe actually look at the listed tech level of ships in HighGuard and the core rule book. Every ship in the crb is TL 12. Ships often have systems of lower TL otherwise just about every laser on a ship would have multiple TL upgrades. Ships tend to be the minimum for the jump drive or tech level 12. A tech level 10 world is not going to have a bunch of tech level 15 ships they can’t maintain it. Weapons systems, power plants, M-Drive, J-Drive all are installed at base TL unless upgraded. There’s a whole section on TL upgrades for those.

While I would agree that a ship sensors are more than likely at the ships TL but a TL 12 military/security ship is probably going to have improved military sensors which was not the case I presented.

The standard way tech works in Traveller is that it is built at the TL of the manufacturing system even if it is otherwise identical. A TL 15 computer may have the same stats at a TL 9 computer of the same rating, but it is still a TL 15 computer. A TL 15 military sensor suite may be only a +0 bonus, but it counts as TL 15 for comparison to a military sensor suite on a TL 10 ship.

Stuff only gets more expensive if it has additional features and capabilities. You aren't required to apply upgrades with higher tech level. You just *can* if you want to pay for them.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There are two basic choices in electronic warfare: to emit a signal or not.
- If you emit a signal [using radar, lidar, etc] it's like turning on a flashlight in a dark theater... everybody can pinpoint where you are but the information you receive will the far more accurate.

Yes, but you only get any information at short range, but you will reveal your position at great range.

Active sensors have a ¹/R⁴ punishing range limit, i.e. to double the range of you sensor you need 16 times more power or antenna size.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar#Radar_range_equation

In space, at range, passive sensors will prevail.

 

[Vormaerin]

However, that's not how the rules work. In the rules, passive sensors are nearly useless and give no information beyond 10k. So if you don't light yourself up, you are basically blind. Active EMS gives info out to 300k and beyond.

 

[Condottiere]

I might be misremembering, but technological difference in the same or complimentary equipment/senses (usually based the declared manufacturing level of the shipyard) only come to the fore as a penalty or bonus when they conflict.

 

[Vormaerin]

I might be misremembering, but technological difference in the same or complimentary equipment/senses (usually based the declared manufacturing level of the shipyard) only come to the fore as a penalty or bonus when they conflict.

correct. "Military sensors" tells you what types of sensors are available (lidar/radar, EM, thermal, jammers) and what die roll modifier they provide relative to other comparable tech (+0). The versions on a state of the art Imperial Frigate at TL 15 are better, which is reflected in the TL modifier.

Just like a Roman pugio and a Marine KA-BAR both fall under the category of "dagger" in Traveller. Because the rules are abstracted and, for most instances, what is relevant is that they both do 1d6+2 melee damage. But a KA-BAR is not a TL 1 weapon just because you can make a 1d6+2 pointy object at TL 1.

This really only shows up with electronics because that's one of the few places where there is a consistent comparison factor involved. The TL of the ship is the TL of the computer and sensors for comparison purposes.

When the stealth rules say: "Apply an additional -1 DM for every TL the ship is higher than the sensors trying to locate it", it means the TL of the ships the sensors are on. Just like its the TL of the ship the stealth coating is on. Not the minimum TL to make those sensors or that stealth coating.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The sensor rules make no sense

A passive sensor - the JWT - can see a lot further than 10,000km...

Also, there is no stealth in space - until someone accepts the gravitic heat sink and makes it canon

But back to sensors and stealth. Spotting a stealth aircraft is not difficult, getting a target lock is.

 

[Vormaerin]

I guess we are supposed to assume the spaceships can't get good passive sensors?

And any "stealth" shouldn't be a coat of paint. It should be some kind of active ECM causing the enemy ships to give erroneous readings. IMHO.

But fiction and games like space dogfights and space Anti Submarine Warfare. It's relatable.

 

[Condottiere]

I think the operative word here would be recognition, rather than detection.