How civilized are civilized?

[SnowDog]

Hi,

As I am again working on my setting that compares very roughly to Northern Europe in 14th century B.C. I began to wonder who would be considered civilized and who would be considered barbarians.

At the time some parts of Finland was under the thumb of Sweden and Germany with only few cities or large towns. These places were largely Christian but our own pagan pantheon was still somewhat alive at least in the further away in the forests.

So, would Christian people be considered civilized in MRQ terms and pagans as barbarians when considering cultures to the area?

Thanks in advance!

 

[The King]

Civilization reaches until where the influence of organized knowledge can extend.
This knowledge includes the ability to read and count (to measure weight and space, volumes, etc..).

 

[soltakss]

As I am again working on my setting that compares very roughly to Northern Europe in 14th century B.C. I began to wonder who would be considered civilized and who would be considered barbarians.

I'm assuming A.D. ...

Which parts of Northern Europe? Mythic Russia covers a lot of the North, although it is more concentrated on Russia, for obvious reasons.

At the time some parts of Finland was under the thumb of Sweden and Germany with only few cities or large towns. These places were largely Christian but our own pagan pantheon was still somewhat alive at least in the further away in the forests.

All in my opinion:
Germany: Civilised
France: Civilised
Low Countries: Civilised
England: Civilised
South/Lowland Wales: Civilised
North/Highland Wales: Barbarian
Lowland Scotland: Civilised
Highland Scotland: Barbarian
Ireland inside the Pale: Civilised
Ireland outside the Pale: Barbarian
Iceland: Civilised
Norway: Civilised
Southern Sweden: Civilised
Northern Sweden: Nomadic
Southern Norway: Civilised
Northern Norway: Nomadic
Finland: Nomadic
Latvia/Estonia: Civilised (Livonian/Teutonic Knights)
Lithuania: Civilised
Poland: Civilised

Some areas are a bit confusing. In the Baltic states, the Teutonic Knights have conquered and expanded, bringing civilisation in terms of large towns and feudalism, however there could well be some areas that are barbarian in culture.

So, would Christian people be considered civilized in MRQ terms and pagans as barbarians when considering cultures to the area?

For that time period, Christian states would be Civilised in RQM terms. However, Lithuania was both pagan and civilised until the first half of the 14th Century.

Also, in Southern Europe, the remnants of the Moors were Civilised but not Christian.

Don't forget that many areas are Civilised in that they have large towns/cities, but they also have many small villages and even some nomadic peoples. So, some groups of people would have barbarian/nomadic cultures even though they are part of a Civilised country.

Russia is civilised but has many peasants living in small villages that may well be barbarian and they are nominally Christian, or half-Christian.

However, in other time periods it is a lot more complicated.

3rd Century Rome was pagan and civilised. Dark Age England was barbarian/pagan, but Dark Age Wales was a combination of civilised/christian and barbarian/christian. Early medieval England was barbarian/christian then Civilised/Christian but the conqering Danes/Vikings were barbarian/pagan then barbarian/christian then civilised/christian. Moors were civilised/Muslim throughout their occupation of Spain.

 

[SnowDog]

Yeah, A.D. obviously That was a bad mistake on my part...

Thanks for the answers! Since this setting is only lightly based on Scandinavia, Russia and Baltics (mostly). Some parts will be civilized, other parts will be less civilized (most of the parts where PCs will start, anyway).

Damn! I based my question on what I remembered on older edition of the RQ :shock: . So, proto-Swedes etc. will be mariner/townsmen mostly with occasional barbarian thrown in or even nomads (if you count the Sami).

Proto-Finns will be mostly barbarian/mariner with occasional townsmen and nomad thrown in. Ditto with the Russians and Baltics to more or less extent.

I intend to throw in some non-human races as well but let's see.

Those civilized folks will have a religion of their own (probably similar to Christianity) and other folks will follow their own pagan ways. This will reflect on their magic and I thought to use normal rune magic exept that instead of runes you use holy relics and after incorporating them you don't have to die to hand them over.

Pagans will probably use spirit magic or something else, I don't know yet.

Anyway, let's see how far this road will take.

 

[SnowDog]

Well, after a thought I think that mariner might not be such a good culture to use but somehow I managed to add in the farmer. I suppose there are quite a bit of those

 

[GianniVacca]

As a rule of thumb I would say: do a little research. If there was a university at the time in a given locale, then it was civilised. If not, it was barbarian.

 

[Utgardloki]

I suppose one thing you could do is forget about the generic labels, and apply labels based on the medieval setting. In other words, instead of having players choose whether to have a "Civilized" vs "Barbarian" background, they could choose a Viking or a Wild Man or a Highlander or a Norman background.

 

[SnowDog]

As a rule of thumb I would say: do a little research. If there was a university at the time in a given locale, then it was civilised. If not, it was barbarian.

I'll have to check it out but I am pretty sure that there was no university even in Turku at the time. Frankly, I'm not sure if there were a university anywhere in Sweden at the time, either...

 

[SnowDog]

I suppose one thing you could do is forget about the generic labels, and apply labels based on the medieval setting. In other words, instead of having players choose whether to have a "Civilized" vs "Barbarian" background, they could choose a Viking or a Wild Man or a Highlander or a Norman background.

That might work. Although Highlander would not work in this setting.

What I was really after is what culture backgrounds would be appropriate for this setting. Obviously it would be cool to disguise those with proper terms like you proposed.

 

[Utgardloki]

What I would do is start with a point, and make it the default background.

Then do a little research and a little thinking and decide what other backgrounds would be likely alternatives. Perhaps there are Woodsmen who live in the forest. There probably would be Jewish and Gypsy backgrounds.

You don't have to list everything, because the third step would be to fill in more backgrounds as you find out about them. Your research materials should give you a good indication of who is around your "point of reference". Wikipedia is a valuable resource for questions like "when and where were the Viking raids?" "Where did the Gypsies live and when did they get there?" (I guess in your campaign they'd be in the Balkans.)

I don't know medieval history well enough to give you a list of names, unfortunately. I have the view from 20,000 feet, but if you want to zero in on one area and time, I'd start with wikipedia and work my way outward.

 

[SnowDog]

That sounds like a good plan. There will definitely be Woodsmen and some Jews (probably to a lesser extent but they still are there). I guess that gypsies will be absent from this setting but I have not yet decided that.

That was very good idea, thanks for posting it!

 

[Utgardloki]

One thing that I'm not clear on: is your game set in actual Medieval Europe or in a homebrew setting that strongly resembles Medieval Europe?

If it is a homebrew, then your job is easier, because you can just put in what you think is needed, and add others as you go.

 

[SnowDog]

Sorry, if I was not clear on what my setting is going to be. English is not my native language (and all those excuses) :wink:

Anyway, it is a purely fictional setting that has similarities to very Northern Europe and Russia (that can be expanded later on). I chose to go with the fictional setting as it is much easier route (like you said) and I feel much more comfortable to add strange creatures etc. to fictional setting.

 

[Sinisalo]

I'd be inclined to go with "Does it have a centralised state with organised state spending?"

 

[SnowDog]

In that case that would be no. As far as I know, during this time at least Finland didn't have a central government but there were Swedes, Danes and Germans having a good time over here

Add to that robber barons (and I mean real Barons with titles and keeps) and you get a pretty chaotic place. Hmm.. just stir it a little bit more, add fantastic elements and this begins to sound all the more interesting place for adventures. And of course there was this Hansaic League that was a power onto itself and quite a remerkable amount of pirates

BTW, Sinisalo sounds awfully lot like a Finn name to me. I even used to know a girl with that last name...