Houserules; Feedback please

[Banichi]

Well, we don't use pods in our group, (we love our fighters too much) and no-one here plays drakk, so this has never come up.

If the rules as written work for you I'm not suggesting you change, I'm just saying what works for us down here. To be honest "E-Mines Hurt"s assault ship attack sounds like a valid tactic to me. And not as bad as using hidden patrol level ships to deny a battle level ship a shot at something right in front of it.

Besides which, huge area denial weapons sound like a good idea to me against a race with lots of super fast little ships. :wink:

 

[CZuschlag]

No offense meant. I remember looking for an answer to the sinking meta-issue a long time ago, and it still stands to this day. Any answer is worth a serious look-at.

At one point, I thought a bout a system of initiative in which if you rolled a 4 (race +1) for net 5, you remembered that:

Patrol ships were at initiative level 3
Skirmish level 4
Raid level 5
Battle level 6
War level 7
Armag. level 8

and you moved, in standard order, level by level. All ships of the same level moved, in alternating fashion, before anything of the next level moved. It quickly got complicated, but had the horrible possibility of rolling such a difference in initiative (especially with current pak'ma'ra vs. Shadows numbers) of having a YouMove-IMoveAndShoot feel to it. I tried lots of variations, but they never seemed to work.

I just felt like priority and initiative number had to work together, Command as a Trait should be ship-level, and priority should reflect the command capabilities of the ship intrinsically. I just never got it to work.

 

[Banichi]

Sorry dude, I didn't mean to sound so defensive. I'm stuck at work, and had just finished dealing with something that made me want to clunk my workmates head's together. So I was a bit on edge.

Move and fire probably has a few kinks we havn't spotted, because we don't play with all the fleets. But I think it's got potential, or I wouldn't argue its case. Pretty much everyone in the group who play down here prefer it to RAW because, as well as solving the init sink problem, it causes a style of play that makes it feel like you are leading with your big stuff, and reacting with the little stuff. (If that makes sense :lol: ). Which kind of feels right.

I'd recommend giving it a try.

 

[tschuma]

Banichi

I talked yhis over with a few guys and we will give it a try and let you know.

tschuma

 

[locarno24]

I like it - I mean I really, really like it.

Man'O'War used the same model, and it worked perfectly well in a really good game.

The Close Blast Doors I couldn't agree with more - it's random and annoying. Intensify Defensive Fire only ever really seems to come into play with ships with the Escort trait - especially the Maximus, which also doubles its area-effect Intereceptors.

I'd suggest simply doing as Banichi suggested - a special action is considered to apply from the point where a ship is activated in one turn to the point where the ship is activated in the following turn. Equally, any rule relating to movement (e.g. can it dodge, can I board it, can I shoot it with mass drivers) covers the immediately previous movement phase.

That does offer the risk of someone 'hiding' under close blast doors by using a ship last one turn then first the next:


Turn 1 - ship used mid-way through (ish). Close blast doors declared.

Turn 2 - ship protected by close blast doors until used (last ship used). Concentrate all firepower declared

Turn 3 - Ship used first - close blast doors declared.



Note that it does significantly benefit the big guys (or squadrons) in shooting first at targets, but I don't mind that; if a swarm fleet feels disadvantaged compared to a fleet of big guys, they can always squadron their little guys up. The reverse is not true.


Matt - possible consideration for 3E?

 

[Banichi]

Banichi

I talked yhis over with a few guys and we will give it a try and let you know.

tschuma

Cool. Like it or dislike it, I'd be interested to see how you found move and fire.

 

[tschuma]

This took place on Wednesday so I might not have all the details right.
We do use Close Blast doors, so we allowed ships to setup with Closed Blast Doors. Also remembering to use the Scout Trait at the beginning of the turn and that I had Frazi’s as interceptors, it played really well. This will change how you play the game. Moving a G’Quan first and having the ability to fire first is huge. It makes Boresight playable. Normally I would have taken 2 points worth of Sho’Kovs or 2fers, but this changed my outlook, to use less ships. Love the Rothans, never used them that much until now.

We will keep trying this out. Give it a try, you will be surprised.

Centauri vs. Narn using Banichi’s Move and Fire system – Call to Arms, 5 point Raid

Forces
Centauri:
3 Vorchans - squadron
1 Corvan
3 Centurion

Narn
1 G’Quan
1 Var'Nic
2 Ka’Toc - squadron
2 Rothan - squadron

The Narn setup from left right – Var’Nic, G’Quan, Ka’Toc’s, and Rothan’s. The launched Frazi’s acting as interceptors.
The Centauri setup looking from the Narn side – Vorchans, Centurions and the Corvan in the back.

Turn 1 – The Narn won the initiative so with the Vorchans close together, decided to move and fire first, the E-mine caught 2 Vorchans and a Centurion in the blast and did average damage. This is where we decided that if you wanted to setup with any Special Action, this should be done during the setup, so almost all ships started out under Close Blast Doors. The G’Quan’s beam took the lead Vorchan to within a few points of Crippled, bad rolling. Next the Vorchans move with APTE to close within the G’Quan and put massive damage on it. The Var’Nic moved and lined up on the lead Vorchan and destroyed it and crippled a second. A Centurion moved to inflict more damage on the G’Quan. The Ka’Toc squadron moved to take out the Crippled Vorchan and put more damage on the lead Centurion. Another Centurion moved and put more damage on the G’Quan and crippled a Ka’Toc. The Rothan squadron was split and only did minor damage to the middle Centurion and then the last Centurion moved taking out the damaged Ka’Toc. The last Rothan moved but did not have a shot.
This is where we made the mistake of using the Scout trait during the turn instead of at the beginning. I also forget to roll for my Frazi’s as interceptors, doh! Plus I think if I moved the G'Quan last it could have used it's secondarys.

Turn 2 – The Narn won the initiative again, go figure! The G’Quan moved and fired again, destroying the crippled Vorchan and damaging the already hit Centurion. This then fired at the G’Quan and took it to crippled status. The Var’Nic then moved and fired on a Centurion that had not moved yet only put minimal damage on it 2 2’s and 2 1’s on the beam roll! This Centurion then moved and fired at the G’Quan and finally took it out. The Ka’Toc’s then moved and fired at the Centurions inflicting more damage. The last Centurion fired at the Ka’Toc’s and Var’Nic and destroyed the crippled one and put some damage on the Var’Nic. The last Vorchan moved to line up some shots for the next turn. The Rothan’s got in a few more hits on the Centurions. So far 2 destroyed Vorchans, and 1 destroyed G’Quan and a Ka’Toc.

Turn 3 – The Centauri won the initiative. A Centurion fired on the Var’Nic and side shots at the last Ka’Toc and took it the Var’Nic close to Crippled. The Var’Nic then moved and fired at a Centurion that had not moved and destroyed it. A Centurion moved to fire at the Var’Nic, Ka’Toc and a Rothan, inflicting damage on all three. The Ka’Toc moved and fired at the Vorchan and destroyed it with a run on beam dice. The last Centurion moved and fired taking out the Var’Nic and damaging the last Ka’Toc. The Corvan finally moved into the battle and put minimal damage on a Rothan. Total loses this turn, 1 Centurion and the last Vorchan the Var’Nic. Remaining is a Centurion and Corvan and the 2 Rothan’s and a Ka’Toc.

Turn 4 – The Narn won the initiative. The last Frazi moved into contact with the Corvan and put 1 damage point on it. A Rothan moved up to the Corvan and destroyed it. The last Centurion then moved and fired on the Ka’Toc and a Rothan destroying the Ka’Toc and damaging the Rothan. At this point he Centurion had an undamaged Rothan behind it and the game was called.


Tschuma

 

[Da Boss]

interesting report - thanks

Couple of questions:

Was there any terrain?
How much of change do you think it will make for boresight ships? Won't they have virtually a F arc (but usually with more dice or range)?
Special Actions - are you allowing more than one a turn - for instance the Vorchans All powered whilst on CBD? Can you declare CBD at the start on any turn or is it only on your ships turn (when you might already have been fired on)
Impressed the Rothern destroyed the Corvan in one rnd - guess its stealth was off and interceptors not working :wink:

 

[CZuschlag]

That's a valid point; it does increase the power of boresight. You have to work a LOT harder to make boresight a liability.

The Dilgar pentacon rule, as was stated earlier, may require a rewrite, or they just lose it altogether. On the other hand, they also become more powerful, as pentacons moving and firing in one volley can create some unearthly early-fire advantages.

As squadrons become more popular under this mechanic, emines become more powerful.

Shadows and Vorlons frequently have bad sinking issues; not anymore.

Short-range races who frequently saw other ships running away from close-range guns will now be more effective (Abbai).

Some scenarios may now be broken (such as the one where you have to defend a given ship, I forget the name).

You might (still working out if it's possible) be able to use clever sequential movement to cheese out the downsides of the Victory firing the Lightning Cannon.

Boarding actions will be much more complicated to calculate due to flexible sequential unit movement.

Some ships will find it far easier to get to All Stop and Pivot.

Manouver to Shield should become far more common.

If freely declarable, Shadow Merging is much more powerful; some rules clarification here would be good.

My first wave of thoughts.

(Edit: Point of information some or many of the above may not be bad things at all.)

 

[tschuma]

interesting report - thanks

Couple of questions:

Was there any terrain?
How much of change do you think it will make for boresight ships? Won't they have virtually a F arc (but usually with more dice or range)?
Special Actions - are you allowing more than one a turn - for instance the Vorchans All powered whilst on CBD? Can you declare CBD at the start on any turn or is it only on your ships turn (when you might already have been fired on)
Impressed the Rothern destroyed the Corvan in one rnd - guess its stealth was off and interceptors not working :wink:

There was no terrain, we just wanted to test out the rules.

I don't think it will change boresight that much. It will all depend on the situation, if you have a good target that you want o move first and shoot at it or if you want to want and then move and fire last at a better target. I pllay Narn and really haven't had much issue lining up a boresight shot. Granted it might not be the target I want, but at least I have the chance to wittle the forces down some.
We handled Specail Actions as such: If a ship was on Close Blast Doors from the previous turn then in the next turn when it was nominated to move the Close Blast Doors was removed and it could then move normally and use another Specail Action. This is where you might want to wait and fire last. The Vorchans started out on Close Blast Doors, but when they moved, this was removed and then did APTE. It wasn;t really a problem and worked smoothly

The Rothan was within 5 inches, a Fighter had fired on it this turn and reduced its Interceptors and he missed ont he rest. Plus I got a Critical. Double Damage, ouch!

 

[tschuma]

That's a valid point; it does increase the power of boresight. You have to work a LOT harder to make boresight a liability.

The Dilgar pentacon rule, as was stated earlier, may require a rewrite, or they just lose it altogether. On the other hand, they also become more powerful, as pentacons moving and firing in one volley can create some unearthly early-fire advantages.

As squadrons become more popular under this mechanic, emines become more powerful.

Shadows and Vorlons frequently have bad sinking issues; not anymore.

Short-range races who frequently saw other ships running away from close-range guns will now be more effective (Abbai).

Some scenarios may now be broken (such as the one where you have to defend a given ship, I forget the name).

You might (still working out if it's possible) be able to use clever sequential movement to cheese out the downsides of the Victory firing the Lightning Cannon.

Boarding actions will be much more complicated to calculate due to flexible sequential unit movement.

Some ships will find it far easier to get to All Stop and Pivot.

Manouver to Shield should become far more common.

If freely declarable, Shadow Merging is much more powerful; some rules clarification here would be good.

My first wave of thoughts.

(Edit: Point of information some or many of the above may not be bad things at all.)

We have do not have any Dilgar yet, but the Pentacon could be devastating, which if you have read the Dilgar noval from LC it was.

Yes, Squadrons will become popular, which isn't bad.

And I just sold my Vorlons and Shadows, Doh!

I have Abbai, so we iwll have to try them out for sure.

Haven't even thought about the scenarios, but you are correct.

I guess I will have to try the Victory out now.

I don't think boarding will be an issue. I might try to work up a Turn sequence, just so our group has a basis to go by.

Some Specail actions might be used more then previously.

Our local Shadow player has not had the need for Merging, but he might now.

You are correct, this might clear up some issues with the rules.

Give it a try and see what happens, it is worth it. I know we will, but not in our tournament on the 8th.

Tschuma

 

[l33tpenguin]

Move+shoot really changes a lot of the dynamics of the game. I can see sinking still happening until everyone is in range, because you want to try and hold your ships back as long as possible. I see a lot more 'stand offs' happening as well as you try to avoid bringing ships into weapon range.

For example, I will try to init sink my warlock as long as I can so that you bring your fat yummy targets in range of its weapons before moving it. You will also get people taking 'double shots' like was pointed out with CDB.
Shadows will become VERY nasty with this. I can hold my ancient shadow ship out of range until the last, then use the shadow SM trait to zoom into weapons range, dump 6 dice of QD beam and follow it up with 6 more dice of QD beam at the beginning of the next turn. Thats a ton of damage to output in a very short time. I can easily see that gutting most any ship on the table before it has a chance to respond.

 

[tschuma]

All I can say is give it a try. We will keep trying it to see what the impact is and I will keep posting the reprots.

 

[Banichi]

Move+shoot really changes a lot of the dynamics of the game.

It does, but once your used to M&F it makes for some interesting tactical options.

I can see sinking still happening until everyone is in range, because you want to try and hold your ships back as long as possible. I see a lot more 'stand offs' happening as well as you try to avoid bringing ships into weapon range.

This has happened a few times in games we have played, but it isn't too bad. It feels more like a test of patience, and manouvering(sorry, I just got back from Aussie, and I'm just too lazy to find the dictionary) skill.

With, and against short range fleets like centauri it isn't much of an issue. As they tend to get across the table, and into your face , pretty quickly.

I'm planing to give my Pak a maiden flight in a couple of weeks. They should be interesting with move and fire. I'll let you know how it goes.

@tschuma Nice report dude, and thanks for giving M&F a try. It does change the way you look at a bore-sight fleet doesn't it.

 

[tschuma]

I should get a game in tonight and will get the report posted as soon as I can.