Horseclans! Up Harzburk!
- Thread starter Ranzadule
- Start date
Ranzadule said:
Only if you could ignore the inherent silliness of the whole background. One of the less believable future histories ever written :roll:
(Or, putting it another way, if the books were so great, then why aren't they still in print? Or, yet another, not everyone thought they were all that wunnerful
)Phil
"(Or, putting it another way, if the books were so great, then why aren't they still in print? Or, yet another, not everyone thought they were all that wunnerful Surprised )"
Hmmm, true enough, I guess it's just horses for courses
I enjoyed them well enough 8)
Oh, still got great memories of running your Space Opera game by the way
I ran a short campaign way back (it seemed to have Ursoids if I remember correctly
)
I have to admit to being a died in the wool Traveller but nonetheless, Space Opera rocked and I thought that the supplements were some of the best out there and worked equally well with Traveller 8)
Hmmm, true enough, I guess it's just horses for courses
I enjoyed them well enough 8)
Oh, still got great memories of running your Space Opera game by the way
I ran a short campaign way back (it seemed to have Ursoids if I remember correctly
)I have to admit to being a died in the wool Traveller but nonetheless, Space Opera rocked and I thought that the supplements were some of the best out there and worked equally well with Traveller 8)
Alan Hume said:
Don't get me wrong, I read a few in the day. However, I didn't read all of them simply because the psuedo-historical background was so pathetically ... unbelievable.
Sorry, historically Mongol style societies get trashed by civilisations in anything resembling the long term.
Yes, and that even applies to the Great Plains of the former US ... because their population density will be so low compared to the civilisations on the east and west coasts (and the likelihood of the Greeks colonising the US after some catastrophe is ... risible ... on purely geographical grounds, let along common sense or believability) that they will go down.
They can't compete ultimately, and if they try to like the Hungarians did ... well, the East and West coasts don't have enough plains for them to maintain their horse-based societies, just like the Hungarian steppes proved inadequate.
Then there was the execrable writing ... especially when he veered off into his obsessions with Armenians, and Lesbians, and Armenian Lesbians, and his general woman-hating attitude ... frankly, a fair few of his books had whole chapters on such obsessions that could ... and should ... have been excised by a halfway decent editor as they added nothing whatsoever to the storyline, plot, or even character development and merely pandered, I suspect, to the unhealthy proclivities of the author.
Didn't stop me from reading some ... even more than once, mainly for the "Castaways in Time" series (I'm a sucker for Time Travel/Parallel Universe stories) ... but I simply never read the obsession filled chapters after the first time, and, guess what? The stories actually improved considerably.
There are a lot better books out there on similar themes much more worthy of Mongoose attention, and much more likely to attract sales, IMO (for whatever that is worth :wink: )
Phil
Ranzadule said:
Never much liked any of Moorcock's works ... which, I'll admit, is unfair, as I don't think I have actually read any, but the blurbs on the back covers never grabbed me in the slightest. The whole concept of the Eternal Champion seemed, well, silly.
Yes. I know. Supposedly it was influential in the development of the whole modern fantasy genre, and role playing of the fantasy sort, but, no, they never grabbed my imagination in the slightest ...
<an aside. I never saw 2001: A Space Odyssey, either. I was teaching in deepest darkest country NSW that year way to hell and gone away from anything resembling a movie theater. When I got back to Sydney, some SF/gaming friends then regaled me, literally ad nauseam, with detailed retellings of the story and plot. Bored the tears out of me, frankly. So I've never seen it. Have no desire to ever see it. And do not feel the lack for never having seen it. So you can see where I'm coming from :lol: )
I'd, personally, be more interested in a game background based on H Beam Piper's "Lord Kalvan" books ... but I recognise they are obscure enough and not even close to everyone's cup of tea, and are, therefore, not a viable choice if you want to make money
Phil
The books are not high literature but there are fun (or were at the time - a crucial difference) and I certainly enjoyed them more than Moorcock and they are certainly better in than the Gor books which make them seem like feminist tracts in comparison.
As to playability - I do wonder, I never ran GURPS Horseclans (which is probably better written than the novels) and never and any real desire to do so nor even any good ideas for it. Maybe this would not be a good idea after all.
As to playability - I do wonder, I never ran GURPS Horseclans (which is probably better written than the novels) and never and any real desire to do so nor even any good ideas for it. Maybe this would not be a good idea after all.
klingsor said:
I don't know if my experience is atypical ... however, the guys I've played RPGs with/around for the last 30+ years are mostly history and, most likely, wargame, buffs as well ... so Horseclans background would immediately come in for some stick :wink:
YMMV of course.
Phil
I would try them provided that they are NOT PUBLISHED IN OMNIBUS and are ONLY PUBLISHED INDIVIDUALLY.
Pardon my shouting but I really dislike the omnibus - it's larger, generally, and while it has more stories, the stories were almost always meant to be read individually; besides if I don't like the first story, I feel that I've wasted the rest of them by getting a group that I can't get through.
Pardon my shouting but I really dislike the omnibus - it's larger, generally, and while it has more stories, the stories were almost always meant to be read individually; besides if I don't like the first story, I feel that I've wasted the rest of them by getting a group that I can't get through.
Ranzadule said:
I only read a couple of the Horseclans books, and that 20+ years ago ... so my memories may be somewhat hazy ... however, there is a strong, fairly obviously (to me, anyway) misogynist thread (rant, in some spots) against women running through the "Castaways in Time" series (as well as rants about the author's seeming obsession with Armenians, and Lesbians, and Armenian Lesbians) and I remember at the time spotting similarities, obvious ones, to the misogynistic threads in the Horseclans books I had read.
Yes. I am aware that some of the major characters in those books were women, and the fact that I read only a couple may be the reason for my observations ... I noted that with the Castaways series the rants and misogyny got worse as the series progressed, so, perhaps (I really don't remember, I threw 'em out ... the HC books ... tho I still have the Castaways books down in the basement :wink: ) the ones I read were from later in the HC series, and the trend that became increasingly obvious in the Castaways series had not taken hold on the author's thinking in the earlier books in the HC series?
Phil
Although the background might not be "realistic", I always found the Horseclans series to be a lot of fun and would buy a RPG sourcebook.
Consider these factors:
* Immortals
* Body-switchers
* Telepathy with animals
* Low tech, but with pockets of science and technology
I think this could be a fun Horseclans RPG book or a fun Gamma World scenario. Like any other setting, if you don't like certain aspects then you can always change them.
Consider these factors:
* Immortals
* Body-switchers
* Telepathy with animals
* Low tech, but with pockets of science and technology
I think this could be a fun Horseclans RPG book or a fun Gamma World scenario. Like any other setting, if you don't like certain aspects then you can always change them.
Adam France
Mongoose
aspqrz said:
Gotta jump in here in defence of the Horseclans ... I love 'em and think it's one of the best fantasy settings ever written!
Okay, by your own admission you've neither read many of the books, or any very recently, so it's not surprising that you are actually factually wrong on several points that you claim about the series.
Firstly, in his initial foreword to the first book, Adams himself spells out the books are fantasy pure and simple. They are NOT intended to be a future history' anymore than Howard intended Hyboria to be a 'past history'.
However, having said that, one of the draws of the series is Adams' knowledge of his subject matter - the man forged weapons and armour for fun for example. He based a lot of the battles and tactics on actual medieval/dark age events. The books are full of intricate detail, and a unique archaic feeling 'period' flavour.
The Horseclans that went east were not massively numerous. Only counting 4000 blooded warriors upon leaving the Sea of Grass, and being down to 1500 warriors by the time they reach Kehnooryos Ehlas (the east coast).
They win because Milo has deliberately led them to a crumbling, decrepid, kingdom that is melting down due to the debauched and woeful state of the nobility. Also and most importantly the Horseclans ally themselves first to a strong mercenary force (helping them trap and crush the main body of the numerically superior Ehleen army), then also with an Ehleen faction.
Once they have taken the kingdom (which was relatively small at that time - covering roughly the modern state of Virginia iirc) they don't then continue to live as nomads, as you seem to be assuming. It's made extremely clear they settle over a period of a generation or two, intermarrying with the local feudal Ehleen and becoming settled feudal lords.
The Ehleen invasion of the east coast several centuries before is thoroughly and credibly (imo) explained in some detail in Book 17 (which I suspect you haven't read), and it's made clear they go to America because of the actions and scheming of an immortal named Bookerman, who convinced the overcrowded meditteranean pirate hosts the east coast was practically desserted. The invasion took 3 or 4 seperate waves over a 20-30 period, and is entirely plausible as I say - you need to read the book really to get it all.
Also you seem to be confusing Adams other two (lesser, but still readable) series with the Horseclans in some of your more subjective criticisms.
The Armenians in the Horseclans are decidedly minor in role, and only feature in a handful of the 18 novels, with none of the major series personalities being Armenian. Hardly obsessive.
Likewise, obssession with lesbians? Hardly, the storyline you reference is in about 1 or 2 of 18 novels, and again is a sideplot, not the main thrust of the book.
Woman hating? Nonsense. Aldora and Mara and many others (Giliahna, Rahksahna, Nika, Bettylou, etc etc) are some of the best and most credible female characters I've read in a fantasy book. Really. Aldora, Mara, and the other Undying females are equal rulers of the Confederation - they lead armies, personally go into battle, and are in no sense lesser than the male characters.
I can understand, and entirely accept, that Adams was an idiosyncratic writer, and the books wont be to everyone's taste. I know what you mean about his Castaways in Time, and Stairway to Forever books, they included a degree of misogony (sp?), but the Horseclans really didn't imo. I'd go so far as to say the books are probably of a 'love 'em or hate 'em' type, as they do seem to bring out very harsh criticisms from those who don't like them, but conversely we fans genuinely LOVE them.
The best similie I can think with on the fly is that these books are like very rare steak, served with rich heady red wine. If you like your metaphorical steak's well done, or find wine gives you headaches, then they won't be for you.
Hey ho, all this talk has got me thinking I may resurect my Horseclans fansite ...
Adam France
Mongoose
As to roleplaying in the Horseclans setting, I own the old GURPs sourcebook (and used to own Up Harzburk), which are great resources for world lore etc, but personally I always preferred and used a RQ/Stormbringer variant rules system in the games I ran in the setting.
I haven't run a game in the setting for a very long time, but way back we had a couple of quite long running campaigns; the first centring around Freefighter heroes searching the continent for a legendary city of gold ... they ended up being slaughtered in a pitched battle fought across the docks of the capital of the Confederation.
The second was a Sea of Grass nomad campaign, where the players were all members of the same Kindred clan, and were battling evil 'Dirtmen' who were based in a large string of underground tunnels beneath the Rocky Mountains (which turned out to be an old US military complex) - both campaigns were good fun.
Much as I'd love to see new HC rpg books in print though I suspect the setting is both too little known these days and too intimidatingly detailed for the casual newcomer.
I haven't run a game in the setting for a very long time, but way back we had a couple of quite long running campaigns; the first centring around Freefighter heroes searching the continent for a legendary city of gold ... they ended up being slaughtered in a pitched battle fought across the docks of the capital of the Confederation.
The second was a Sea of Grass nomad campaign, where the players were all members of the same Kindred clan, and were battling evil 'Dirtmen' who were based in a large string of underground tunnels beneath the Rocky Mountains (which turned out to be an old US military complex) - both campaigns were good fun.
Much as I'd love to see new HC rpg books in print though I suspect the setting is both too little known these days and too intimidatingly detailed for the casual newcomer.
Adam France
Mongoose
Just dug around a bit on the web archive thingy and found (some) of my old dead HC fansite is still on there, notably my painstakingly pieced together timeline (through researching which I can assure you Adams knew his own creation very well - the series is one of the most internally consistent I've ever read when it comes to dates etc).
If you're interested it's here; (I think as I say I may get it live again soon.);
http://web.archive.org/web/20010930042302/http://horseclans.topcities.com/
If you're interested it's here; (I think as I say I may get it live again soon.);
http://web.archive.org/web/20010930042302/http://horseclans.topcities.com/
