Hit Point Question

[Supplement Four]

I haven't played D&D in mucho years. Decades. I ran a Conan game not too long ago, but this is different.

This is old school AD&D second edition from 20 years ago.

I was digging through some boxes, and, what do you know, I found a stash of original Dragonlance adventure modules. All twelve of them. Written for AD&D, with a few AD&D 2E books (Players Handbook, DM's Guide, and a couple of other books).

So, the hair hit me. I never did finish the Dragonlance saga back in the day. I think we played three quarters of it, to about module 8, then packed it up for some reason.

I put it to my group of players. They were all game. And, Saturday, we had our first game session.

It was amazing--definitely one of the better "first game sessions" I've run. Rules and procedures I'd forgotten came back to me. I mean, I was in my 20's the last time I played this game.

It was heroic. It was fun. It was old school D&D.

This group of old men played until 4:00 AM, just like we used to.

Wives were not happy.





Gotta question fer ya...

D&D is basically a combat game. It's main focus is about fighting different horrible creatures. Sure, role playing is involved too. That's a part of any good rpg. But, D&D is about fantastic heroes winning against the odds against the forces of evil. If you had to pick one aspect of the game and label it as "most important", the combat aspect of it would have to be the main choice. A major part of the rules is about combat--what you can do, how far you can move. And, look at the various Monster Manuals--books of baddies to fight.

D&D, at it's core, is primarily mean to be an action game with combat at its heart.



So why is it...

In every edition of the game, the official rules for getting hit points returned to the character after being injured takes so doggone long?

What's the reasoning behind this?

Anybody know?

They say that your hit points, at first level, are your life's blood. Everything else you have as hit points represent your ability to withstand bruises, light cuts, punches, fatigue, losing your breath, and whatnot.

Then...

The rules turn around and say that you can regain 1 hit point per day. Period. And, that's if you take it easy.

If you actually rest in a bed and do nothing for the entire day, you can regain 3 hit points per day. If you spend a week, you can add your Constitution bonus to this amount.

Plus, you can add things like Herbalism or a Healing non-weapon proficiency to increase the total by another 1d3 or so.



This doesn't seem practical. And, it sure doesn't seem like we're allowing a character to recharge his fatigue batteries or catch his breath, as the definition of hit points state.

It really seems like we're healing real wounds.



Let's take Caramon from the first Dragonlance module. He's a 6th level fighter with 51 hit points.

Now, let's say he gets into a fight where he takes 35 points of damage, lowering him to 16.



What I'm trying to understand is why the authors of the rules want this character to have to spend almost two weeks in bed in order to overcome his fatigue from this fight.

Or...why do the authors want Caramon to not be fully recovered from this fight for over an entire month (and regular rest of 1 pt per day)?



I'm looking for reasoning why natural healing in D&D is always so slow (no matter which edition you look at).

Anybody know?

Anybody know anything official?

 

[Jotenbjorn]

Because hit points were more directly proportional to physical well being. If you get seriously chewed up in a fight it could easily take 3 weeks to heal. It doesn't really work well in practice though, which is why I'm a big proponent of actual wounds being part of any critical hit system.

 

[rabindranath72]

I suppose that it's a totally "gamist" problem. If you have a class which excels at healing, you don't want to steal its thunder.
In fact, if you look at the old AD&D 1e Conan modules, clerics are not supposed to exist as PCs, and PCs are not supposed to be able to find help from clerics very often, so an "improved" healing rule was added: PCs heal half of their Con score per day of rest, plus one hit point per day regardless of rest. So, your 35 hit points Caramon (btw, he should have more hit points; errata appeared in the DL4 module) would be healed in two days.

A rule I have used recently in my Classic D&D games comes from an old Judges Guild supplement, and it works as a sort of Shock Recovery. Essentially, each character can heal 1d4 hit points at the end of each fight. Only points inflicted in the last fight can be healed this way.
I also allow clerics to improve this quantity to 1d6 for one person, but doing so, they are not able to recover points for themselves. It works very well, since it does not reduce clerics to medics (so they can also use other spells), and does not make clerics absolutely necessary to a group's survival, nor forces the DM to add healing potions to every treasure hoard.

 

[superc0ntra]

Just add a house rule that healing is seen as a percentage of the original HP.

Each day 5 or 10% of original HP
Cure light wounds d4 * 10% of original HP
Cure serious wounds d4+2 * 10% of original HP
Cure critical wounds d6+4 * 10% of original HP

Or something like that

 

[Supplement Four]

I suppose that it's a totally "gamist" problem. If you have a class which excels at healing, you don't want to steal its thunder.

That must be what they were thinking.

In fact, if you look at the old AD&D 1e Conan modules, clerics are not supposed to exist as PCs, and PCs are not supposed to be able to find help from clerics very often, so an "improved" healing rule was added:

Interesting. I think I have those around here somewhere. I'll take a look. Thanks for the tip.

So, your 35 hit points Caramon (btw, he should have more hit points; errata appeared in the DL4 module) would be healed in two days.

I list he's got 51 hit points and takes 35 damage in a fight.

I've got DL4 and did see the erratta before the game started. Thanks, though.

A rule I have used recently in my Classic D&D games comes from an old Judges Guild supplement, and it works as a sort of Shock Recovery. Essentially, each character can heal 1d4 hit points at the end of each fight. Only points inflicted in the last fight can be healed this way.
I also allow clerics to improve this quantity to 1d6 for one person, but doing so, they are not able to recover points for themselves. It works very well, since it does not reduce clerics to medics (so they can also use other spells), and does not make clerics absolutely necessary to a group's survival, nor forces the DM to add healing potions to every treasure hoard.

I like it. I'll consider using it. Thanks.

 

[Malcadon]

I personally don't consider combat to be the best aspect of classic D&D. I think it was the lack of a skills system that keeps things smooth and simple. The big element that made the game so enduring was the exploration - the strange puzzles, the traps (which what not limited to Thieves/Rogues), the unknown somethings lurking behind each door. Red Nails plays out like an old-school adventure. I can't say I agree with Dragonlance being a truly old-school design because of the all the prefab PCs and heavy railroading. Between owning the complete DL set and B2: Keep on the Borderlands, I rather have Borderlands because I could do alot more with it.

With regards to natural Hit Points recovery, I say ignore it. If you want Hit Points to partly or fully recover overnight, then go for it. House rules are quite common with old-school gaming - hell, OD&D was just a mish-mash of house rules, with individual players adding to the mess! Hit Points are more then just one's capacity for cuts and bruises, its also an abstract mix of luck, skill, willpower, karma, and so on. Loosing HP don't necessarily mean someone gets wounded - it could easily be just a nicked breastplate (that is, if the character did not jump back when he did, the opponent's blade would have been more intimate with his heart).

 

[Supplement Four]

I personally don't consider combat to be the best aspect of classic D&D. I think it was the lack of a skills system that keeps things smooth and simple. The big element that made the game so enduring was the exploration - the strange puzzles, the traps (which what not limited to Thieves/Rogues), the unknown somethings lurking behind each door.

Yeah, but without combat, are those things in a D&D game as interesting?

It's the element of exploration and the sense of danger. What beastie lurks around the next corner?

The strange puzzles--do I put my hand in the maw of that stone gargoyle? Will it magically snap down on my wrist?

A thief, opening a chest. Is it trapped? Will my thief die?

Those are all combat related situations.

I can't say I agree with Dragonlance being a truly old-school design because of the all the prefab PCs and heavy railroading. Between owning the complete DL set and B2: Keep on the Borderlands, I rather have Borderlands because I could do alot more with it.

I've only re-read DL1, but I think it's probably written a lot more like B2 than you remember.

The entire module is random.

First, there's a map of the area, keyed with encounter areas.

Then, there's random encounters depending on where the PCs travel.

You've basically got Haven, the city-state capital of the area, the Darkenwood, the forest of the Qualinesti elves, the plains of the plainsmen, the invading dragon army to the north, and Xak Tsoroth, where the climax takes place.

There's a "pull" to go to Xak Tsoaroth given tot he players early in the game, but they're free to go wherever they want.

Certain things only happen if the PCs venture into specific locations.

The randomness of the random encounters keeps things very interesting.

And, there's not a lot of railroading at all.

We ended our first session as the PCs found their way back to Solace. They alerted the town; made them aware of the invading army. Secretly, they've got the pull to get the Blue Crystal Staff to Xak Tsoaroth.

But, they've got a lot of choices.

Each time a DM runs this module, it's a different adventure because it hinges so much on player decisions.

 

[rabindranath72]

I've only re-read DL1, but I think it's probably written a lot more like B2 than you remember.

The entire module is random.

First, there's a map of the area, keyed with encounter areas.

Then, there's random encounters depending on where the PCs travel.

You've basically got Haven, the city-state capital of the area, the Darkenwood, the forest of the Qualinesti elves, the plains of the plainsmen, the invading dragon army to the north, and Xak Tsoroth, where the climax takes place.

There's a "pull" to go to Xak Tsoaroth given tot he players early in the game, but they're free to go wherever they want.

Certain things only happen if the PCs venture into specific locations.

The randomness of the random encounters keeps things very interesting.

And, there's not a lot of railroading at all.

We ended our first session as the PCs found their way back to Solace. They alerted the town; made them aware of the invading army. Secretly, they've got the pull to get the Blue Crystal Staff to Xak Tsoaroth.

But, they've got a lot of choices.

Each time a DM runs this module, it's a different adventure because it hinges so much on player decisions.

Totally agreed. DL has a bad name, but I suppose it got it from bad DMs. Every time I DMed it, it went differently. The fact that there is a war in the background, does not imply that the PCs MUST go somewhere, or do something. It's true that some elements point to railroad (the infamous "mysterious death rule") but it's nothing that a DM worth of his name cannot change (as always). Last time I ran the module, I only had two players (they weren't even the pregens). Through a series of choices and luck they jumped about half the module and recovered the staff without killing the dragon. Now they decided to go north, so they will go directly to Solamnia. So long for the modules! But I don't care, since the modules work perfectly as small gazetteers.

 

[tarkhan bey]

Looking back guys, wouldn't you agree that the "mysterious death" rule in Dragonlance was actually the forerunner of Hero/Fate points?
I still own all the original modules as well as several of the hard backs that were released for 3ed DnD.

Ps Keep on the Borderlands was the first adventure module that I ever ran as a DM. Aaaah,fond memories.........

 

[Supplement Four]

Yeah, the module could be long. In between games, my players are talking of taking the staff to Haven.

Originally, they were going to go straight to Xak Tsaroth. That would have cut out a lot of the material in the first chapter.

It's totally up to them, though. As a DM, I'm prepared wherever they go. I'm giving them complete freedom (not just percieved freedom).

They'll go wherever, and I'll follow.

And, of course, they'll have to deal with the consequences of their actions. :shock:







RE: Keep on the Borderlands.

Ah, yes. I agree. The fond memories.

That was my first taste of D&D...my first taste of any rpg. 1982. I was a player. I knew nothing about the game other than I was addicted to it six hours after I was introduced to it.

I remember I kept running back to town because the thief in my party kept getting killed, and I needed a new one.

It was kind of tough getting the third one to follow me back down into the Caves.

 

[rabindranath72]

Looking back guys, wouldn't you agree that the "mysterious death" rule in Dragonlance was actually the forerunner of Hero/Fate points?
I still own all the original modules as well as several of the hard backs that were released for 3ed DnD.

Ps Keep on the Borderlands was the first adventure module that I ever ran as a DM. Aaaah,fond memories.........

That's a good way of looking at it. I actually almost never used it, since the NPCs managed to get away. And in one occasion, the PCs made sure to check whether the NPC was dead: they so hated Verminaard, that they decapitated him and burnt the rest :shock:

 

[Supplement Four]

I can't say I agree with Dragonlance being a truly old-school design because of the all the prefab PCs and heavy railroading

This statement is totally inaccurate with regards to DL 1, the first adventure in the epic.

But, fair-is-fair, I've looked at DL 2 now, and Malcadon's statement is very accurate with regards to that adventure. It's a railroad all the way through.

I guess you're going to get that with an epic 12 part series written by different people. Different authors mean different writing styles.

 

[Malcadon]

I forget to say that I have not played these modules in years, and I was not the DM. I remember playing a series of 2nd ed-ish modules that required players to play prefab PCs, and the whole game felt like a train ride. I can not remember the exact name of the series (Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms?) as I have played a number of related module sets, but I remember I hated having my hands tied - like it was some dame novel simulator. The game fell apart do to derailment, and we end up playing something more open-ended.

I never really liked the 2nd ed years, because all the railroading and meta-plots really plagued the RPG industry back in the 90's. I learned that, if you give a new player a White Wolf book, he'll sink a small fortune on sourcebooks; if you give him a cheap old Keep on the Borderlands module, he'll be set for life! :wink:

 

[Supplement Four]

Yeah, it's interesting the different writing styles, looking over the DL series.

DL 1 is seriously a genius, old school adventure. DL 2 looks to be fun, too, but it is very much a rail road. The text in that second one assumes the players will go exactly with the story with no change at all.



Interesting note:

I was looking around on the net today and found out two things. One, what you hated about the 2nd ed. years--more story oriented adventures (that can be railroaded)--is lauded as a special change in the industry. Evidently, Gygax wanted to stay with the open ended, different-monster-in-each-room-no-matter-if-it-made-sense-or-not style, while most of TSR was trying to "upgrade" the art of writing an adventure by making them much more story oriented. Evidently, Dragonlance paved the way with its huge 12 module epic story.

I also saw that DL 1, which really is a beautifully written adventure, made Paizo's list of the Top 30 Best Adventures Ever Written For D&D. It was the only Dragonlance module to do so.

 

[cbrunish]

My personal favorite was either U1 Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh or T1 The Villiage of Homlet. But B2 was definatly something. It didn't make sense (now) that all those different monsters were crammed into a small area but at the time who cared? It was just fun!

But Conan has a pretty good system. 3+Con Mod+1 per lvl per day or double if complete bed rest*. A 3rd lvl character with a 12 con would heal 14 hps per day of rest. Probably be healed up within a couple or few days. A much better system!!!


*Pg 248 of pocket edition

 

[Supplement Four]

My personal favorite was either U1 Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh or T1 The Villiage of Homlet.

I loved Saltmarsh. Played it more than a few times.

It made the Top 30 List, BTW.



The first module I ever DMed was The Secret of Bone Hill. It was designed a lot like Keep on the Borderlands. A 1-3 level module, you started your character in this town on the island of Leedore.

The complete town was mapped and detailed, down to every NPC who lived there. There were jobs to be had (clean out the rats!) if the players interacted with some of the shopkeeps.

The entire keep was detailed as well, along with all the guards and local lord.

And, then, the wilderness area around the town was keyed. There were some interesting places to go, plus a big adventure similar to the Caves of Chaos in Keep on the Borderlands. Wandering monsters. A marauding band of gnolls. And, some bandits.

It was this big sandbox of keyed encounters enhanced by random encounters.

Loved that module. Wish I still had it.

But B2 was definatly something. It didn't make sense (now) that all those different monsters were crammed into a small area but at the time who cared? It was just fun!

God, it was fun. We always tried to "make sense" of all those monsters living together. The guy who taught me the game--my first D&D session--ran me through B2, and what he did was decide the goblins and hobgoblins had tunneled into each other. My party stumbled upong a great war between them.

I remember, hurt like hell, the survivors in my party were holed up in this room, and outside the door, we could hear the fighting. Then, some oil was thrown. The corridor was a-blaze. And we had to make our way through the smoke and fire. Lost another character doing that.

Fun stuff, though.

But Conan has a pretty good system. 3+Con Mod+1 per lvl per day or double if complete bed rest*. A 3rd lvl character with a 12 con would heal 14 hps per day of rest. Probably be healed up within a couple or few days. A much better system!!!

I agree.

The Dragonlance world of Krynn has one thing in common with Conan's Hyborian Age: There ain't no clerics!

I used Conan as a model. Remember, I'm running AD&D 2nd edition, though, so I modified it a bit to fit that system. For example, in Conan, under 3E, if you've got just about any CON you've got a HP bonus. Under AD&D, you had to have at least a 15 CON to get even 1 HP.

So, knowing that the CON bonus is harder to get in AD&D 2E, I came up with the following rule for Krynn.



CATCHING YOUR BREATH
At the end of every combat encounter, when out of danger, a character will regain perspective, recharge energy lost to fatigue, and literally catch his breath, resting from the high-energy requirements of a fight.

Hit Points Regained: 1 Hit Die + CON Bonus





WOUND TREATMENT
Characters with the Healing non-weapon proficiency can treat injured characters provided enough herbs, salves, and other medicines are at hand. The Dungeon Master will require a Healing check with a difficulty based on the severity of the wound being treated. A successful Healing check will return a number of hit points to the injured character equal to his Natural Healing rate. Treating an injured character uses up resources, and healers may need to locate replacement medicines. An injured character can only be treated in this manner but once per day regardless of how many combat encounters the character lives through or how many times the character is wounded.





NATURAL HEALING
The body is constantly healing itself. After a good night's sleep, the character awakens refreshed and recharged. The character must rest 3d4 hours, and hit points regained are available but once in a 24 hour period.

Hit Points Regained: 1 Hit Die + CON Bonus + 1 point per Level




BED REST
Badly injured characters can refrain from all activity, resting in bed for the entire day. Doing so doubles the hit points regained from Natural Healing that day.



CARE GIVER
Characters with the Healing non-weapon proficiency may nurse injured characters as long as the healer has at hand the necessary materials (healing salves, herbs, bandages, and other medicines). This treatment does not require a Healing check but does use healing resources (counted at the DM's discretion). The injured character benefits from the healer by using 2 HD when rolling for his Natural Healing (instead of 1 HD).

Care Givers that have both the Healing and Herbalism non-weapon proficiency benefit their patients by allowing them to throw 3 HD when rolling for Natural Healing.



After 3 game sessions now, this seems to be working like a charm (and supporting the definition of hit points being an abstract representation of fatigue and what-not).

 

[cbrunish]

SF, thats a pretty good system!

And Bone Hill was a pretty great module. I think that you can download it from WOC website. At work so I can't give you the info for sure. They blocked it because it is linked to games! :lol: But I can always get on Mongoose! 8)

I also loved the I3 The Pharaoh. I loved the feel of an egyptian theme module. God, those were the days of great modules and artwork for the modules. TSR use to put out good modules.

Wanted to add B4 The Lost City. Excellent module and really has a Conan feel, with a lost city of people degenerated with a demonic creature ruling the city.

 

[Malcadon]

I like the S-series modules. They are so awesome with their flashcards. Everyone feared S1: Tomb of Horrors because it ate PCs alive!!! S2: White Plume Mountain was crazy as hell! I don't know what dope they were shooting, but I what some! S3: Expedition to the Barrier Peaks hold a special place in my heart because I like who they dropped a chunk of the Warden (a generation spaceship from Metamorphosis Alpha) on a D&D world - its something only a Gamma World fan would enjoy. S4: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth was OK, but I did like the new monsters - I'm also a fan of Graz'zt.

I also really enjoy the old Judges Guild modules. Bob Bledsaw put a lot of good stuff into his books. The unique thing about JG, is how the setup is vary pulp without trying to be so. He produced his books on cheap, raggy newspaper sheets to keep cost down, the content was vary hodgepodge, and he was not above putting half-naked eye-candy on the covers. I have a TON Judges Guild files on my PC - I'm not even finished reading it all, but I'm finding all sorts of goodies!

SF, thats a pretty good system!

What system is that?

 

[Supplement Four]

I also really enjoy the old Judges Guild modules. Bob Bledsaw put a lot of good stuff into his books. The unique thing about JG, is how the setup is vary pulp without trying to be so. He produced his books on cheap, raggy newspaper sheets to keep cost down, the content was vary hodgepodge, and he was not above putting half-naked eye-candy on the covers. I have a TON Judges Guild files on my PC - I'm not even finished reading it all, but I'm finding all sorts of goodies!

I agree. I think too many people discount JG stuff as crap because of its presentation. But, there's some really good material written between the covers of most JG books. I know their early Traveller stuff was good-to-fantastic.

What system is that?

He's speaking of the Healing rules I'm using in my AD&D 2E game listed a few posts above this one.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I didnt like the healing rules either, I found a way to ignore them without having to invent anything by using healing potions. Healing potions negated the need for tedious healing timeouts, and had a small party up and running again in no time. Its also had a beneficial effect upon the treasure that they found, simply because they began to value the healing potions above all else. I could, therefore, deal out treasure to the players which was mostly one use and keep them happy at the same time.

A bit like an early form of the metagame in computer rpgs, I guess.

The best module by far, I thought, was the Hidden Shrine of Tamouchan. Totally reusable for Conan as well, with a little tweak.