Himelian variant: Sherpas-like culture

[VincentDarlage]

Vincent, question for you: So if I understand your post correctly, that would mean the map in the 2nd ed Corebook is actually not acurate?

LOL. Really, I am sitting here laughing, trying not to wake up my wife. No. No, it isn't accurate. Which 2e map are you referring to? Doesn't matter, neither one is accurate. If you are talking about the Return to the Road of Kings map, you will notice a few places are listed twice! Kusan, for example, is listed twice.

Tombalku is coloured like jungle. Still no southern desert. Alkmeenon, which is in Punt, is placed in Stygia. Heck, the capital of Keshan (Keshia) is also placed in Stygia! Sukhment, instead of bordering Darfar, is in the middle of Stygia. The Jeluba River, which is supposed to go through Tombalku is also in the middle of Stygia. The Zarkheba River goes through the grasslands of Kush...

Aquilonia is still too big. Nemedia is smaller than ever. Zamboula is too far north. Still have mountains around Khauran... Vendhya is mislabelled... Anshan River in Iranistan is misspelled. The Red River isn't on the border of Nemedia anymore. Cimmeria is still coloured like plains (the poem makes it clear Cimmeria is wooded hills). Pathenia is still in the wrong place. Goralian Hills are supposed to be in Aquilonia, not Cimmeria.

So, no. It isn't accurate. :lol:

If you are talking about the 2e map which is a reprint of the Atlantean Edition map, then...

A. Khauran is missing a river and has mountains too close to it.
B. Stygia is too small.
C. The Black Kingdoms are too small.
D. Aquilonia is too big & Nemedia is too small.
E. There are two Karpash Mountain ranges (there should be one)
F. Khitai is in a temperate zone.
G. Kosala is on the wrong side of Vendhya.
H. Pathenia is too far north (it should be where Mongolia would be)
I. Kush is the wrong shape.
J. The southern desert is too small.
K. There is no Atlaia or Amazon (REH said both exist there)
L. Keshan is on the wrong side of the Styx.
M. Zamora is the wrong shape.
N. Rabiran Mountains are placed wrong.
O. Goralian Hills should be in Aquilonia, not Cimmeria.
P. Hyperborea is too big.
Q. Brythunia is the wrong shape.
R. Mu? Why is that in the corner?
S. Lake Zuad is in Stygia, not Kush.
T. Sukhmet borders Darfar, not Kush.
U. Taian Mountains (at corner of Styx) are too massive.
V. Vendhya is placed wrong.
W. Uttara Kuru is in the wrong place.
X. Kordufan (mentioned by Howard) is not on the map.
Y. Korvela is too far north.
Z. Ilbars River is incorrectly placed.
AA. Zaporoska River is horribly misplaced.
BB. Hyrkania does not reach the eastern shore as it should.
CC. Where are the Golden Kingdoms on that map?
DD. Black Coast is too short.
EE. Southern Isles too far north.
FF. Zamboula is WAY too far north.
GG. Haunted pyramids are in Stygia.
HH. Shadizar in the wrong place.

Seriously, shall I go on?

No. The maps are not accurate.

 

[Zeke73]

I would love to see an accurate map made by you, Vincent. Why doesn't Mongoose let you make one?

 

[VincentDarlage]

I would love to see an accurate map made by you, Vincent. Why doesn't Mongoose let you make one?

Why doesn't Mongoose let me make one? I don't know. I would imagine the license-holders won't let them change the shape of the world. That is the only reason I can think of - and it is a good reason. If the people who own the rights aren't interested in a correct map, then there is probably little Mongoose can do about it.

As for seeing an accurate map made by me...

Here you go!

The Hyborian Age
The Whole Wide World: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyborian_age_full.jpg
The primary Hyborian age kingdoms: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyborian_age.jpg

Black Kingdoms
Amazon: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_amazon.jpg
Atlaia: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_atlaia.jpg
Darfar: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_atlaia.jpg
Kush and the Southern Desert: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_kush.jpg
Punt: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_punt.jpg
Southern Black Kingdoms: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_southern_black_kingdoms.jpg
Tombalku: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_tombalku.jpg
Zembabwei: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_zembabwei.jpg

The Blue East
Ghulistan: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_ghulistan.jpg
Hyrkania: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyrkania2.jpg
Hyrkania with Trade Routes: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyrkania3.jpg
Iranistan: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_iranistan.jpg
Khitai: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_khitai.jpg
Turan: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_turan2.jpg
Turan (closer): http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_turan3.jpg
Vendhya & Kosala: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_vendhya2.jpg

The Dreaming West
Aquilonia: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_aquilonia.jpg
Argos: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_argos.jpg
Brythunia: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_brythunia.jpg
Cimmeria: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_cimmeria.jpg
Corinthia: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_corinthia.jpg
Koth: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_koth.jpg
Nemedia: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_nemedia.jpg
Zamora: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_zamora.jpg
Zingara: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_zingara.jpg

Other
The Eastern Desert: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_eastern_desert.jpg
The Whole Wide World without borders or text: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyborian_age_full_clean.jpg
The primary Hyborian age kingdoms without borders or text: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyborian_age_clean.jpg

They aren't pretty (I am not a professional artist or graphic designer), but they work for me. Note that there is an error on the whole wide world map - Punt and Keshan need to be switched around (they are correct on the close-up maps). I've lost thulsa's email, or I'd send him a corrected map (I've corrected my copy).

 

[Jotenbjorn]

OK, I'm now confused. The map released in the rule book isn't the real map and should be discarded? The license holders don't want their world redrawn so they won't allow anyone to fix it? Even your map shows Pathenia as a mountain range. Meanwhile that same map shows Hyrkania as steppes, and every source I've ever seen has treated Hyrkania as a Mongolian-like culture. I like your map, seriously I do, but even it doesn't support any argument for Pathenia being analogous to Mongolia unless Howard's Mongolians ride mountain goats.

Most of Howard's materials were rough outlines at best. This site is for discussion of the Conan D20 Game and its source materials are THE source materials, even beyond any of Howard's canon. The map and materials supplied in the book do not support Pathenia is Mongolia. In fact

The Hyrkanians are by nature nomadic horsemen with a culture resembling that of the Huns and Mongols.

 

[Demetrio]

He said

Pathenia is where Mongolia should be

I could say 'the Pictish Wilderness is in fact largely Atlantic Ocean' and it would mean the same thing.

Pathenia is mountainous.
Pathenia is where Mongolia would be were our earth superimposed on the Hyborian Age earth.
The Hyrkanians are loosely modelled on the historic Huns and Mongols.

None of the above statements are contradictory.

Just because the Hyrkanians are modelled in part on the Mongolians does not mean they reside in Panthenia, which is situated where Mongolia would be in real life.

Just like because the Argosseans are modelled in part on the Geeks, Argos isn't actually very near where Greece would be.

Or indeed our semi-Roman Nemedians who are more in Germany than Italy.

 

[David St-Michel]

I've got to admit that the map thing is really starting to irk me.

Personally, I've shelled out 16 dollars for a large, laminated print-out of a map that is basically a festival of mistakes. And it's not written ANYWHERE that these maps are as accurate as if an eight-year old drew them.

This is coming from a company who is kept in high regards because of the QUALITY AND ACCURACY of its Conan information in keeping with the legacy of Mr. Howard.

And they give us bad maps.

Really, I do not understand, I will gladly pay 20 dollars for a proper, folding world map of the hyborian world as seen by Mr. Howard. I have done it last week and only realised though the fine folk here that I paid for a faulty world map.

I don't get it.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Thanks, Demetrio. Hopefully your comments clears up the matter for squidyak. I was speaking of location, not culture.

David, I am not sure what to tell you. I have brought up the map issues with Mongoose many, many times. Whenever I submit my text for the sourcebooks, I also submit my map. I really think their hands are tied in regard to map issues. I don't have proof, but I suspect it is a licensing issue.

However, I am devoted to keeping things as accurate as possible in the text, and I have made my maps available.

 

[VincentDarlage]

This site is for discussion of the Conan D20 Game and its source materials are THE source materials, even beyond any of Howard's canon.

LOL. Since I write A LOT of the source materials, I like to discuss many topics on here to make sure of my accuracy, run things by the fans, and try to put out source materials people like. I think a debate on the location of Pathenia is appropriate.

I think it is located where Mongolia is located. It is an issue of geography. I've given my evidence on the matter. You think it is located where the map shows it. I have shown that the map is likely incorrect. You've given no additional evidence that its placement is correct.

Arguing that if it is on the map automatically proves the location is valid, then is the capital of Keshan really located in Stygia? That is where it is located on the Return to the Road of Kings map. I think your argument is invalid.

Another question, since you consider the source materials (much of which I wrote) to be THE source materials, how do you reconcile the mismatches? For example, in Road of Kings, Aquilonia - Flower of the West, and Return to the Road of Kings (all of which were written by me) and in Hour of the Dragon (written by REH), the Goralian Hills are in Aquilonia. All of Mongoose's maps put them in Cimmeria. Which source is correct, since all of Mongooses source materials are "THE source material"?

If you have further evidence for Pathenia being this huge kingdom the size of Nemedia way up in what amounts to Northern Russia, please give it.

Here is something else - Mongolia is bordered on the north by the Sayan Mountains, and along the south-west by the Altai Mountains... Still kind of sounds like a good place for Pathenia to me. I enhanced those mountains a bit (probably too much, actually) on my map, figuring they wore down over the eons to eventually become the mountains they currently are.

 

[Scorpion13]

Am I bad because I really, really like the map for The Atlantean Edition book? I mean, how accurate is it? It certainly is quite nice to look at.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Am I bad because I really, really like the map for The Atlantean Edition book? I mean, how accurate is it? It certainly is quite nice to look at.

No, you are not bad. It is a beautiful map. As for accuracy, you can see my list about eight posts back. You can also add that Tombalku is incorrectly placed next to a River of Death (Zarkheba) and the Jeluba River should be in Tombalku, not Stygia.... and so on.

It is an incredibly inaccurate map. It is better than the original map for 1E, but still...

 

[Jacek]

Boy, we've been through the map accuracy issues so many times over... I think such topic should be set as a sticky in the Conan subforum. This would really solve many problems with Mongoose maps matters.

I mean there should be another topic devoted only to maps, not one like this one, where it's only one of the questions raised.

 

[VincentDarlage]

While it is a neat idea, I am not sure how much it would solve. For example, what about Pathenia? I have an opinion that it is misplaced and too large on the current maps. Squidyak thinks it is correct in those respects. Was anything solved? Mongoose has two equally valid opinions. No one else really has weighed in on the issue, so there isn't even a majority consensus on the issue for Mongoose to consider.

 

[Jacek]

At least we would have both Mongoose opinions and the forum members' remarks in one place. Worth giving a shot I guess.

My vision of it is two front posts for the fullest possible presentation of both Mongooses and then other remarks following the rule: 1 post - 1 item. For example:
Member1: Aquilonnia
Member 2: Aquilonnia
Member 3: Aquilonnia
Member1: Aquilonnia
Member 3: Styx River
Member 2: Aquilonnia
Member 4: Styx River
Member 5: Turan
Member 5: Styx River
VincentDarlage :wink: : Turan
...
you get the idea.

We could also start using subject line while posting a reply. Maybe the
search function would also be more useful then.