High jump Shipping and Ticket costs

[mlooney]

Is there really supposed to be a full order of magnitude jump between 5 parsecs and 6 parsecs?

High passage for 5 parsecs 45,000 CR
High passage for 6 parsecs 470,000 CR?

In MgT1 those numbers were 40,000 and 50,000.


Freight is even worse.
It used to be 1,000+200 per extra parsec, which means that 6 parsec would be 1000+(5x200) or 2,000 CR.

MgT2 has it cost 86,000 CR.

While I'm at it, I approve of Basic Passage, however I'm confused by the amounts.
1 parsec = 2,200 CR
2 parsec = 2,900 CR
3 parsec = 4,400 CR.

?????

Actually looking at the table on page 215 (2nd ed book) vs page 160 (1st Ed, 2nd printing) just makes me sad.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I think the trick with 2nd edition jumping was to make money, instead of lose money, on such trips. Or... a comma is in the wrong place. Hopefully, the guy that beta-tested the rules for this chapter will chime in.

 

[mlooney]

I think the trick with 2nd edition jumping was to make money, instead of lose money, on such trips. Or... a comma is in the wrong place. Hopefully, the guy that beta-tested the rules for this chapter will chime in.

6 parsecs is constantly a little more than 10 times the cost of 5 parsecs, regardless of the type of ticket or if it's freight. It's not a case of one where there is an extra zero, it's that way across the whole thing.

It also doesn't say if that is what you charge if you do it in one jump or 6. If it applies to 6 jump 1 trips (vs 6 x 1 parsec cost), there is no freaking way anything is shipped across a subsector, much less across multiple sectors.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I haven't looked at fuel tonnage. Is it weirded-out at Jump-6 engine level? Maybe we don't know yet because High Guard is not out yet for us to playtest how J6 fuel tanks are built.

 

[mlooney]

Assuming they haven't tossed canon out the air lock Jump 6 takes 60% of the tonage of the ship, and Jump 5 takes 50% of the mass. Size of the drive, of course, varies by several factors, and we don't have that sort of info right now.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Fuel tonnage is calculated differently now. It still does that 5-10% error bit. Some of the beta guys swear by it. I'm not a nuts and bolts player when it comes to Traveller. I just make stuff up, using what's already built as a guide. Because players don't care about fuel tonnage 95% of the time. It's the other players that want to simulate making money using their ship is when problems start. I don't know of one version of Traveller that can simulate what a starship economy is in the year 5628.

I been told this edition of Traveller is the one that can now. So I'm curious what the die-hard trader type play-testers will think.

 

[AndrewW]

Assuming they haven't tossed canon out the air lock Jump 6 takes 60% of the tonage of the ship, and Jump 5 takes 50% of the mass.

That is correct.

 

[mlooney]

Assuming they haven't tossed canon out the air lock Jump 6 takes 60% of the tonage of the ship, and Jump 5 takes 50% of the mass.

That is correct.

OK, what about the order of magnitude jump in shipping/ticket costs then?

 

[AndrewW]

OK, what about the order of magnitude jump in shipping/ticket costs then?

Don't know on that, but it has been noted already.

 

[AKAramis]

Yes, J6 is 10x the cost of J5.

A 300 Td J5 costs MCr146.45 and 807414/month, with 42 Td of payload
A 300 Td J6 costs MCr182.45 and 991414/month with 7 Td of payload.
1/7 the tonnage available, and almost 20% more cost... so 1.2 * 7 is 8.4...

It gets worse at some points, due to bridge tonnage requirements and crew increases, but gets a little closer as ship tonnage goes up...

Mind you, I had to revise the monster spreadsheet... repeatedly.

J1 to J9 at all the following breakpoints...
100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500, 1600, 1700, 1800, 1900, 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500, 5000, 6000, 7000, 8000, 9000, 10000, 11000, 12000, 13000, 14000, 15000, 16000, 17000, 18000, 19000, 20000

Note: You cannot build a commercially viable tankage-aboard J8 or J9 design. You HAVE to use external tankage to get there. J6 and J7 are extremely expensive, due to high costs and low tonnage of payload (be it passengers, frieght, or cargo).

Edit: Note: Matthew took the (already rounded up by me) numbers, and rounded them up more.

 

[mlooney]

Yes, J6 is 10x the cost of J5.

A 300 Td J5 costs MCr146.45 and 807414/month, with 42 Td of payload
A 300 Td J6 costs MCr182.45 and 991414/month with 7 Td of payload.
1/7 the tonnage available, and almost 20% more cost... so 1.2 * 7 is 8.4...

It gets worse at some points, due to bridge tonnage requirements and crew increases, but gets a little closer as ship tonnage goes up...

Mind you, I had to revise the monster spreadsheet... repeatedly.

J1 to J9 at all the following breakpoints...
100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500, 1600, 1700, 1800, 1900, 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500, 5000, 6000, 7000, 8000, 9000, 10000, 11000, 12000, 13000, 14000, 15000, 16000, 17000, 18000, 19000, 20000

Note: You cannot build a commercially viable tankage-aboard J8 or J9 design. You HAVE to use external tankage to get there. J6 and J7 are extremely expensive, due to high costs and low tonnage of payload (be it passengers, frieght, or cargo).

Edit: Note: Matthew took the (already rounded up by me) numbers, and rounded them up more.

OK, then it needs to be made clear that the "distance" part of that grid is for single jumps only, not total distance traveled. i.e. shipping to a world 6 parsec away via a J1 ship is 6x1 cost, not the 6 parsec cost.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Mind you, I had to revise the monster spreadsheet... repeatedly.

He really did. And it was all my fault

Aramis is The Man on this. I'll let him explain the mechanics.

 

[AKAramis]

The way the numbers were derived:

For each of the listed tonnages:

• Design a basic box with standard crewing, standard bridge, 1 turret
• Find the cost to operate the ship. Monthly payment on full mortgage assumed. Maintenace, LS, and Crew Salaries per 2 weeks - the standard schedule. Does NOT include stewards, but does include 1st medic.
• Divide by the tons to get a cost per ton.

Building the basal price:

• Collate the output of the above into a 9 column (J1-J9 designs) by buch of rows...
• Delete any entry that is nonsensical (negative numbers indicate designs that have run over.) This empties columns J8 & J9. (which means they must needs use substandard crewing and/or jump tanks)
• Find the standard statistical measures by jump range for the 200-20,000 Td range - min, max, mean, median, standard deviation. Most have no mode.
• Take the highest of (Median + StDev), (Mean + StDev), or (minimum + 2*StDev) for each column.

This gives a baseline. In CT Bk2, this was around Cr750 for J1. Which is where the profit factor is added in from: multiply basal by 1.3 to get price.
Round to next Cr50.

Next, figure costs for everything else besides freight.

• Figure staterooms required per passenger of that class. This includes a share of steward and medic based upon maximum allowed.
• figure tonnage of lost cargo space - both for SR useage and for baggage. This is the Cargo Lost Factor
• figure the time derived costs: the mortgage on the staterooms, the maintenance on the staterooms, and the share of steward and doctor salaries, plus life support. This is the base expenses factor. Up it by x1.3
• for each distance and passage type, multiply the Cargo Lost Factor by the cost of freight for that distance, then add the base expenses.
• Round it all up.

Finally, pretty it up for presentation...
If it weren't for spreadsheets, it would be insane to try it.

Matthew added a little bit more to several - rounding up the numbers again. If one's going to reduce the precision, that's the best direction to do so on this.

Note also: 100 Tonners are an order of magnitude high on most costs.

Here's the original cost data per jump of Jx on a two week schedule:

_ Basal ____ J1 ____ J2 ____ J3 ____ J4 ____ J5 ____ J6 ____ J7 ____ J8 ____ J9
___ 100 __ 2209 __ 3190 __ 6943 _ 20851 _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 
___ 200 ___ 851 __ 1462 __ 2501 __ 4551 _ 10957  356988 _______ _______ _______ 
___ 300 ___ 711 __ 1235 __ 2150 __ 4054 __ 9613 _ 70816 _______ _______ _______ 
___ 400 ___ 595 __ 1071 __ 1890 __ 3289 __ 6800 _ 23465 _______ _______ _______ 
___ 500 ___ 552 __ 1018 __ 1747 __ 2981 __ 5875 _ 17960 _______ _______ _______ 
___ 600 ___ 520 ___ 975 __ 1659 __ 2846 __ 5677 _ 15474 _______ _______ _______ 
___ 700 ___ 514 ___ 934 __ 1600 __ 2755 __ 5284 _ 13261 _______ _______ _______ 
___ 800 ___ 487 ___ 901 __ 1559 __ 2644 __ 5058 _ 12521 _______ _______ _______ 
___ 900 ___ 477 ___ 893 __ 1527 __ 2572 __ 4890 _ 11515 _______ _______ _______ 
__ 1000 ___ 466 ___ 881 __ 1500 __ 2566 __ 4758 _ 11564 _______ _______ _______ 
__ 1100 ___ 476 ___ 900 __ 1550 __ 2673 __ 5175 _ 13058 _______ _______ _______ 
__ 1200 ___ 462 ___ 881 __ 1511 __ 2607 __ 4974 _ 12196 _______ _______ _______ 
__ 1300 ___ 457 ___ 868 __ 1508 __ 2580 __ 4842 _ 11841 _______ _______ _______ 
__ 1400 ___ 452 ___ 863 __ 1478 __ 2532 __ 4755 _ 11288 _______ _______ _______ 
__ 1500 ___ 449 ___ 853 __ 1465 __ 2498 __ 4680 _ 11073 _______ _______ _______ 
__ 1600 ___ 444 ___ 848 __ 1453 __ 2476 __ 4614 _ 10900 _______ _______ _______ 
__ 1700 ___ 441 ___ 840 __ 1454 __ 2471 __ 4596 _ 10540  470274 _______ _______ 
__ 1800 ___ 434 ___ 832 __ 1435 __ 2442 __ 4512 _ 10431  373124 _______ _______ 
__ 1900 ___ 432 ___ 831 __ 1427 __ 2415 __ 4502 _ 10154  209302 _______ _______ 
__ 2000 ___ 429 ___ 829 __ 1419 __ 2425 __ 4460 _ 10235  236067 _______ _______ 
__ 2500 ___ 439 ___ 838 __ 1441 __ 2428 __ 4534 _ 10341  312757 _______ _______ 
__ 3000 ___ 430 ___ 825 __ 1422 __ 2412 __ 4424 __ 9962  147248 _______ _______ 
__ 3500 ___ 425 ___ 819 __ 1404 __ 2368 __ 4312 __ 9600  113223 _______ _______ 
__ 4000 ___ 425 ___ 811 __ 1390 __ 2349 __ 4261 __ 9416 _ 93624 _______ _______ 
__ 4500 ___ 421 ___ 811 __ 1379 __ 2325 __ 4218 __ 9215 _ 78828 _______ _______ 
__ 5000 ___ 418 ___ 804 __ 1379 __ 2315 __ 4187 __ 9114 _ 78250 _______ _______ 
__ 6000 ___ 413 ___ 797 __ 1365 __ 2306 __ 4163 __ 8993 _ 66179 _______ _______ 
__ 7000 ___ 409 ___ 791 __ 1357 __ 2286 __ 4112 __ 8849 _ 61885 _______ _______ 
__ 8000 ___ 407 ___ 788 __ 1351 __ 2273 __ 4086 __ 8775 _ 58716 _______ _______ 
__ 9000 ___ 405 ___ 785 __ 1345 __ 2264 __ 4075 __ 8696 _ 56241 _______ _______ 
_ 10000 ___ 404 ___ 782 __ 1342 __ 2258 __ 4050 __ 8629 _ 55167 _______ _______ 
_ 11000 ___ 404 ___ 784 __ 1342 __ 2256 __ 4043 __ 8609 _ 53211 _______ _______ 
_ 12000 ___ 402 ___ 781 __ 1338 __ 2250 __ 4038 __ 8565 _ 51762 _______ _______ 
_ 13000 ___ 402 ___ 780 __ 1336 __ 2247 __ 4022 __ 8525 _ 50981 _______ _______ 
_ 14000 ___ 401 ___ 778 __ 1333 __ 2243 __ 4013 __ 8507 _ 50454 _______ _______ 
_ 15000 ___ 400 ___ 777 __ 1333 __ 2239 __ 4012 __ 8480 _ 49787 _______ _______ 
_ 16000 ___ 399 ___ 776 __ 1330 __ 2237 __ 4000 __ 8453 _ 49314 _______ _______ 
_ 17000 ___ 398 ___ 775 __ 1328 __ 2234 __ 3994 __ 8443 _ 48814 _______ _______ 
_ 18000 ___ 398 ___ 773 __ 1328 __ 2231 __ 3995 __ 8424 _ 48379 _______ _______ 
_ 19000 ___ 397 ___ 774 __ 1326 __ 2228 __ 3986 __ 8404 _ 48071 _______ _______ 
_ 20000 ___ 397 ___ 773 __ 1326 __ 2228 __ 3982 __ 8398 _ 47726 _______ _______

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I was going to fight the good fight on the costs too, but seeing that Aramis worked out the numbers, I am going to shut up...

However, it should be clearly stated that the rates posted are for a single jump, not consecutive Jump-1's.

You can pay CR6,000 to ship 1 ton of cargo and take 6 weeks (or 12 weeks with stops) or pay Cr86,000 and get it there in one week.

 

[-Daniel-]

However, it should be clearly stated that the rates posted are for a single jump, not consecutive Jump-1's.

+1

It was not clear to me without reading this forum. Once I realized the intent it made sense.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I was going to fight the good fight on the costs too, but seeing that Aramis worked out the numbers, I am going to shut up...

Yeah, that is pretty much what I did when I saw his work

 

[allanimal]

That pretty much means anyone who has a jump 6 ship should never choose a job that requires less than jump 6 or they lose money big time.
Any time you don't use maximum jump efficiency, that is the case, but it is dramatic with jump 6.

This is not a problem, just an observation. Captains of high jump capability ships will be getting into regular trade routes of jump 6...

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

You are right and I think this is something that no one realized before. Sure, most of us guessed that it made sense to maximize your jump distances, but the costs weren't clearly shown.

At some of the lower Jump Numbers, J1 and J2, there is enough slop that you can still make money with a J2 ship on a J1 route, but just not very much. NOW, it is easy to see that by J3, you need to doing max jumps, not taking smaller jumps.

This also explains why there are all these J1 ships in a setting that really needs J2 to get just about anywhere. The J2 ship brings it across the gap and passes it off to a J1 ship to make that smaller jump to the next world over. If the J2 ship did both jumps, it would lose money.

NOW we see why there is so much free-floating cargo moving around and LOTS of trans-shipment of cargo. I bet groups of Free/Far Traders form loose Trade Associations where they work together to pass around freight and cargo so that they can both make money.

 

[hdan]

Yep, the huge J-3 or even J-4 cargo liners stick to the high-jump lines, and rely on Subbies and Free Traders to handle the off-route deliveries.

 

[-Daniel-]

This sort of follows the real world cargo path.

I have a delivery from China to Los Angeles. It is combined with tons of stuff into cargo containers and loaded onto a large cargo ship. It is taken across the sea to San Pedro where it is off loaded. The container with my delivery is then loaded onto a container truck and taken from San Pedro to a cargo handler in Los Angeles. They open the container and sort the cargo into small piles that are loaded onto small bobtail trucks that fan out across LA county to deliver specific packages to specific locations. Each leg used a vehicle best suited to maximize profit for the whole delivery.

Makes a lot of sense. 8)