HG: those last few letter drives...

[GypsyComet]

Is there any particular reason for the AA, BB, CC, and DD Jump Drives to be 10 tons larger than previous instead of 5? The scale efficiency curve actually looks smoother at the standard 5 ton progression.

And while we're at it, does the combination of the letter drive table and the High Tech drive size reduction chart make anyone else's head hurt, or is it just me?

(I have the "empty TOC" edition of HG, if that helps)

 

[captainjack23]

Is there any particular reason for the AA, BB, CC, and DD Jump Drives to be 10 tons larger than previous instead of 5? The scale efficiency curve actually looks smoother at the standard 5 ton progression.

And while we're at it, does the combination of the letter drive table and the High Tech drive size reduction chart make anyone else's head hurt, or is it just me?

It's you. Me, I love it. It brings out the old Starfleet Battles modification munchkin in me. So, perhaps I'm not the most typical person to ask...

 

[captainjack23]

Is there any particular reason for the AA, BB, CC, and DD Jump Drives to be 10 tons larger than previous instead of 5? The scale efficiency curve actually looks smoother at the standard 5 ton progression.

It reflects the effect of Harriman-Holtz quantum interface limit at its extreme ratings.

Typically, small H-H field generators show a progression of approximately x^2/12 for a second step in the function when the neccessary jumpspace apature exceeds 28000m^3; so, from that we can see that as the generation module increases to compensate, the output efficiency function describes an extreme step function just before jumpspace pseudovelocity at insertion exceeds the general Jspace constant (Thi^2). At this point the field typically requires Chronion phase modulation units to reform the amplitude wave, as the ionized aether trail is flared. (Obviously this is only appropriate above the Tarrasov frequency limit*).

That help ?


*using approximate values for chi/eta

 

[GypsyComet]

Allow me to pass along the headache, then.

Take two ships-a-buildin. One is 500 tons, the other 1400 tons.

The owner of the 500 ton hull wishes J-drive performance of 4, while the owner of the 1400 ton hull has called for jump performance of 2. Under MGT, both of these would be "K" drives, off the shelf at 55 tons (its a big shelf).

This is a TL13 starport, by the way.

Along comes HG, page 53. Lo and behold, the "K" drive for the 1400 ton ship, since it is only providing J2, suddenly shrinks by 10% and costs 125% as much. Same drive, same rating, same drydock.

What?

 

[rust]

It is the new, improved, smaller but more expensive version with the
Phase II Einstein-Heisenberg Compensators which have the low vo-
lume Sekomi Reducers ?

 

[GypsyComet]

This is all for J6, but the AA' also fits into the J5 progression.

Hull size Code/Tons  %
100 tons  C	 20	  20
200 tons  F	 35	  17.5
300 tons  J	 50	  16.7
400 tons  M	 65	  16.25
500 tons  Q	 80	  16.0
600 tons  T	 95	  15.83
700 tons  U	 100	 14.29
800 tons  V	 105	 13.125
900 tons  W	 110	 12.2
1000 tons X	 115	 11.5
1200 tons Z	 125	 10.4
1400 tons AA	135	  9.64
1600 tons BB	145	  9.0625
1800 tons CC	155	  8.61
2000 tons DD	165	  8.25
CAPITAL		          7.0

and then with the usual 5 ton progression instead:

Hull size Code/Tons  %
100 tons  C	 20	  20
200 tons  F	 35	  17.5
300 tons  J	 50	  16.7
400 tons  M	 65	  16.25
500 tons  Q	 80	  16.0
600 tons  T	 95	  15.83
700 tons  U	 100	 14.29
800 tons  V	 105	 13.125
900 tons  W	 110	 12.2
1000 tons X	 115	 11.5
1200 tons Z	 125	 10.4
1400 tons AA'  130	  9.28
1600 tons BB'  135	  8.44
1800 tons CC'  140	  7.78
2000 tons DD'  145	  7.25
CAPITAL		          7.0

 

[captainjack23]

Allow me to pass along the headache, then.

Take two ships-a-buildin. One is 500 tons, the other 1400 tons.

The owner of the 500 ton hull wishes J-drive performance of 4, while the owner of the 1400 ton hull has called for jump performance of 2. Under MGT, both of these would be "K" drives, off the shelf at 55 tons (its a big shelf).

This is a TL13 starport, by the way.

Along comes HG, page 53. Lo and behold, the "K" drive for the 1400 ton ship, since it is only providing J2, suddenly shrinks by 10% and costs 125% as much. Same drive, same rating, same drydock.

What?

Hmmmm. Good one. Since the actual jump generated is a function of technology, the same drive has a different effective tech in different hulls -and so resolves the tech difference differently. So, yes this is how it is intended to be resolved, and it is odd.

The question then is not "am I reading this correctly" but rather "how can this make sense ?", correct ?

Well, looking entirely within the MGT rules with Canon arguments ignored, I'd say that the J2 version is smaller partly because the components needed to make a J3+ are removed for the bigger ship installation. So one imagines that a J drive is somewhat accumulative as tech level increases. Most of it is Tech 10-12 (as discussed in the rules) but crucial parts are higher tech, but so easily available off-the shelf that most shipyards can deal with them if using standard construction.

However, could one not then pull the engine and stick it in the smaller ship ? It's not discussed in the rules, as far as I can tell ; but my first pass at the issue would be that the engine for the bigger ship is tech +3 (for J2); while a type K drive it would produce J4 in that smaller ship, its tech increment becomes 0; so, since one could not design such a ship/drive combination from scratch, it doesn't work ......its an argument from effect, really.

Perhaps the drive and the volume of ship interact in a non linear way? We already know that they are wierd as they use volume instead of mass, so perhaps the expectation of a direct and unidirectional relationship between engine size ship size and efficiency is what is error

And yes it does have a dose of handwavium, and circularity in it - this is one of those areas where the technical procedures of a fictional machine (FTL) don't make complete sense, I guess.

Better solutions actively solicited.

 

[captainjack23]

It is the new, improved, smaller but more expensive version with the
Phase II Einstein-Heisenberg Compensators which have the low vo-
lume Sekomi Reducers ?

Oh yeah, right :roll: Those went out with the Ziru Sika, fer hecks sake. This "Phase II crap" is all marketing. E-H Compensators are standardized in N dimensional coordinate space, okay ? Now and forever .
The effect of insertion on Jumpwave functions as described by Sekomi is simply a local effect describing Pseudo particle velocity at the effect boundry ; used in this context it is just a half baked explanation for innumerate non-hyperstatistical mathematicians who are too lazy to look into Bayesian-m'Arcov solutions to the flare effect.

 

[rust]

I knew I should not have bought that Engineeropedia from a Vargr ... :shock:

 

[Jeff Hopper]

The question then is not "am I reading this correctly" but rather "how can this make sense ?", correct ?

Better solutions actively solicited.

Its the difference comparable to an aircraft built by Boeing and one built by Northrup-Grumman.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I think you are trying to read too much into the TL adjustment tables.

If you are buying a "K" drive, it is per the TMB. There are no TL adjustments.

IF you want to build a ship at TL15, per HG, you wouldn't use the "standard" drives, you would build it with specific TL 15 drives, which would be smaller, but more expensive than the "Standard" drive.

Don't overthink it! It is either standard, per the tables, or custom built, using the TL adjustments. Of course, you can mix and match in your ship, but not in the same component.

 

[Gruffty the Hiver]

It is the new, improved, smaller but more expensive version with the
Phase II Einstein-Heisenberg Compensators which have the low vo-
lume Sekomi Reducers ?

Oh yeah, right :roll: Those went out with the Ziru Sika, fer hecks sake. This "Phase II crap" is all marketing. E-H Compensators are standardized in N dimensional coordinate space, okay ? Now and forever .
The effect of insertion on Jumpwave functions as described by Sekomi is simply a local effect describing Pseudo particle velocity at the effect boundry ; used in this context it is just a half baked explanation for innumerate non-hyperstatistical mathematicians who are too lazy to look into Bayesian-m'Arcov solutions to the flare effect.

Even when the you replace the TL-12 Widget with the new SolTech TL-15 version? I thought SolTech had solved those problems when they moved the Ion Flow Converters back to the front of the Jump initiator system, thus eliminating the need for any further Bayesian-m'Arcov solutions other than those provided with the Jump governor software.

Or did I miss something? :lol: :lol:

 

[GypsyComet]

I think you are trying to read too much into the TL adjustment tables.

If you are buying a "K" drive, it is per the TMB. There are no TL adjustments.

IF you want to build a ship at TL15, per HG, you wouldn't use the "standard" drives, you would build it with specific TL 15 drives, which would be smaller, but more expensive than the "Standard" drive.

Don't overthink it! It is either standard, per the tables, or custom built, using the TL adjustments. Of course, you can mix and match in your ship, but not in the same component.

Except of course that it is *still* a 'K' rated drive with regards to the rules, since that is what passes for performance and power determination in MGT.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

True, but when you use the "standard" drives, you get a fixed performance out of the drive, which can give you Jump 1 or Jump 6 depending on the hull. The "building TL" takes a back seat to the design performance. You still need the Jump 6 Computer controls, which is probably where the TL limits come from.

Trying to use the Standard Drives AND apply TL mods is going to give anyone headaches. If you want to use the TL benefits, then drop the letter drives and use the percentages from HG, which makes it very like the CT HG... Your choice.

 

[GypsyComet]

If you want to use the TL benefits, then drop the letter drives and use the percentages from HG, which makes it very like the CT HG... Your choice.

The Capital ship percentages are already more space efficient than the letter drives, at least for Jump. Maneuver is generally more space efficient, but has a few exceptions, wherein M6 is slightly more efficient at 2000 tons than for larger (capital class) hulls, and M1 levels out at 1000 tons instead of 2000.

So using the TL benefits with cap ship base percentages on smaller ships is double dipping for space (can't check price, as the books aren't handy). On the face of it this is not a huge issue, but it is certainly non-standard enough that you'll want to note it in your design notes.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Absolutely correct, and I think it was deliberate.

IF you want a non-starndard, custom built design, it might be a bit more efficient, but will take longer and the repairs will have to be specialized, no plug-n-play replacements there!

I think it is much more balanced than the old Book2 and HG were.

 

[captainjack23]

Absolutely correct, and I think it was deliberate.

IF you want a non-starndard, custom built design, it might be a bit more efficient, but will take longer and the repairs will have to be specialized, no plug-n-play replacements there!

I think it is much more balanced than the old Book2 and HG were.

The simple fact that M drives work the same general way as a default is proof of that....

Now, if I want civilian ships to have a different style of hardware than Milspec, I have some options (TL, reaction, etc)

 

[GypsyComet]

IF you want a non-starndard, custom built design, it might be a bit more efficient, but will take longer and the repairs will have to be specialized, no plug-n-play replacements there!

I think it is much more balanced than the old Book2 and HG were.

No argument there.

Now, if the "more efficient but harder to work on" was actually mentioned in the rules, we'd be set. My issue with double dipping is one of having no trade-offs in exchange.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I thought there was something in HG about how the letter drives can be worked on/replaced at just about any starport, but to work on the TL drives, you need to be at a starport with that TL...??? Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Infojunky]

Here is a thought, Jump isn't tech level limited by the drive it's self, but but the ancillary hardware.

Any jump drive is capable of any jump as long as it gets required power, data and drive/ship tonnage ratio is met.

In a lot of ways Mongoose has uncoupled the hard TL model from starships, in such that that a ship now more than ever is a collection of parts that come from sources that can build them to a spec and not a tech level.

I'm not saying that is what they said in the fluff, but it is what they did in function.