HG 2e Chapter Two new questions

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

I am not sure of my understanding of the example on p. 24 of how damage is determined for two or more weapons when they are fired together.

I think the example and text are saying that by adding a second weapon of the same type the second one adds a plus 1 for each damage dice or gets a plus 2. Two missile racks firing on the same target would determine damage as 4D+2.

1. Am I on the right track with the Damage?

2. What is the cost of an empty barbette?

3. Would an empty barbette require power if it does what is the power requirement?

4. What is the cost of an empty bay?

5. Is the 2 tons/per attack for the six attacks a small mass driver bay can make or would it require 12 tons?

 

[Jeraa]

If two or more weapons are of the same type, they may be fired together. One attack roll is made for all weapons being fired, but each additional weapon adds +1 per damage dice to the final damage total.

For example, if a triple turret with three pulse lasers is fired, it will only make one attack roll but will deal 2D+4 damage (two additional pulse lasers each adding +1 per damage dice).

Each additional weapon simply adds 1 point of damage per damage die it deals. So one beam laser deals 1D damage. Two of them in the same turret deal 1D+1 (1D for the first, +1 for the second). Three would deal 1D+2 (1D for the first, +1 for the second, +1 for the third).
A pulse laser deals 2D damage. Two of them in the same turret deal 2D+2 (2D for the first, +2 for the second). Three would deal 2D+4 (2D for the first, +2 for the second, +2 for the third).
One laser drill deals 4D damage. Two of them in the turret deals 4D+4 damage (4D for the first, +4 for the second). Three would deal 4D+8 (4D for the first, +4 for the second, +4 for the third).

Missiles do not follow this rule, as they have their own rules (Core Rulebook, 162, under Impact)

2. What is the cost of an empty barbette?

The same cost as designating a space for a turret - nothing. Hardpoints cost nothing. The various barbette weapons include the turret mechanism, they aren't separate like turret weapons. Essentially, there is no such thing as an empty barbette. Either you have a space on the hull for later attaching a weapon, or you have the weapon attached.

3. Would an empty barbette require power if it does what is the power requirement?

See number 2. No weapon, no power required.

4. What is the cost of an empty bay?

The same cost as cargo space - nothing. You just simply designate an appropriately sized area as a location for a bay weapon, and can install one at a later time.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Jeraa,

If two or more weapons are of the same type, they may be fired together. One attack roll is made for all weapons being fired, but each additional weapon adds +1 per damage dice to the final damage total.

For example, if a triple turret with three pulse lasers is fired, it will only make one attack roll but will deal 2D+4 damage (two additional pulse lasers each adding +1 per damage dice).

Each additional weapon simply adds 1 point of damage per damage die it deals. So one beam laser deals 1D damage. Two of them in the same turret deal 1D+1 (1D for the first, +1 for the second). Three would deal 1D+2 (1D for the first, +1 for the second, +1 for the third).
A pulse laser deals 2D damage. Two of them in the same turret deal 2D+2 (2D for the first, +2 for the second). Three would deal 2D+4 (2D for the first, +2 for the second, +2 for the third).
One laser drill deals 4D damage. Two of them in the turret deals 4D+4 damage (4D for the first, +4 for the second). Three would deal 4D+8 (4D for the first, +4 for the second, +4 for the third).

Missiles do not follow this rule, as they have their own rules (Core Rulebook, 162, under Impact)

2. What is the cost of an empty barbette?

The same cost as designating a space for a turret - nothing. Hardpoints cost nothing. The various barbette weapons include the turret mechanism, they aren't separate like turret weapons. Essentially, there is no such thing as an empty barbette. Either you have a space on the hull for later attaching a weapon, or you have the weapon attached.

3. Would an empty barbette require power if it does what is the power requirement?

See number 2. No weapon, no power required.

4. What is the cost of an empty bay?

The same cost as cargo space - nothing. You just simply designate an appropriately sized area as a location for a bay weapon, and can install one at a later time.

Thank you for the reply and that I appear to be correctly interpreting the rules, with the exception of the rules for missile which HG 2e does not reference as using the Core Rule Book requirements on p. 162.

The weapons used in the turret for the most part are the same weapons installed in the bays and barbettes which means that, not allowing empty bays or barbettes does not make sense, particularly when the other rule sets allow them. Empty bays, in the other rule sets, can be used to for cargo.

In a few ways I like MgT rules, unfortunately the omission of rules like being able to have empty barbettes and bays doe snot make any sense.

The purpose of standard bay sizes is to be able to quickly modify a ship to suit a particular mission by only having to swap out a weapon system.

I disagree with empty bays not having a cost since they are, like turrets, designed to handle weapon systems, which means now of the stuff I did in GURPS Traveller or other rule sets will be able to translated into MgT because of the omission.

Again thank you for the reply.

 

[allanimal]

The weapons used in the turret for the most part are the same weapons installed in the bays and barbettes

My interpretation is that bays and barbettes do not use the same weapons - they are larger or somehow better versions of the turret weapons. They take more power and do more damage.

which means that, not allowing empty bays or barbettes does not make sense,

An "empty barbette" is simply 5 unused tons of space and a free hardpont.
A ship deign can say something like:
Variant A - 2x particle beam barbettes and a small meson bay - xMCr
Variant B - 3x torpedo barbettes and x tons of torpedo magazine space - y MCr
Variant C - 3x sand caster turrets and 5 medibays + x cargo space - z MCr
And so on

particularly when the other rule sets allow them. Empty bays, in the other rule sets, can be used to for cargo.

This is a new rule set. If we wanted everything the same as the old, why do we bother with the new?

In a few ways I like MgT rules, unfortunately the omission of rules like being able to have empty barbettes and bays doe snot make any sense.

The purpose of standard bay sizes is to be able to quickly modify a ship to suit a particular mission by only having to swap out a weapon system.

I disagree with empty bays not having a cost since they are, like turrets, designed to handle weapon systems, which means now of the stuff I did in GURPS Traveller or other rule sets will be able to translated into MgT because of the omission.

Again thank you for the reply.

There is nothing stopping you from having empty bays and barbettes.
In Mongoose Traveller, one simply buys the entire shebang as a complete system.
There is no reason why they can't be swapped out with any other weapon system to fit a mission profile.
Until there are rules for refits and retrofits and such, a GM can use whatever rule for these situations as they see fit, as long as the overall space and hardponts rules are followed.

 

[Condottiere]

You'll have to decide when designing a ship as whether to spring for a bay or a gunhouse, and then be specific as to the size if the gunhouses are uninstalled.

If it's a bay, in it's empty state you could use it as a storage area, or even a garage with an outside hatch.

 

[snrdg121408]

Nuts, I have lost another post sent when the forum forwards a notification update message.

Anyway, my topic lied since I had four questions. I think I will give up for today and try again Tuesday PDT since I am having a Monday on Sunday.

Thank you all for the replies.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

I am tempting the web gremlins by trying a reply prior to Tuesday PDT.

1. I did not say that barbettes, bays, and for that matter the spinal weapon and turrets used the same weapons. They "for the most part" use the same weapons. I admit that the section is overly vague and agree that the difference between the weapons is they get larger in the case of barbettes and spinal weapons. Bays on the other hand concentrate a lot of fire power from single weapon systems, which appears to mean that the systems are the same as used in turrets.

The other barbette weapons are as indicated in the descriptions on MgT HG 2e pp. 25-26 larger than the ones mounted in turrets and indicate that with the of a missile barbette, hold a single weapon.

A five d-ton missile barbette houses five missile racks, twenty-five or about 2 d-tons of missiles, the mechanisms needed to feed the missiles to the racks, and any other sub-systems to elevate/depress the missile racks or rotate the barbette if one uses the details established in the earlier Traveller rule sets.

Please note I did not mention the gunner's station since I have not figured out if it is part of the turret or a separate space. My attempts to use the separate systems like CT Striker, TNE FF&S, or other systems for designing turrets have not been able to fit the missile racks, ready ammunition, and gunner's station into a one d-ton space.

A one d-ton turret can house a maximum of four missile racks, gunner's station, systems to elevate/depress the missile racks, rotate the turret, and the feed system to load missiles. Unfortunately, per the rules twelve missiles require one d-ton of storage space by themselves which in my opinion indicates that a majority of the them are not stored in the turret.

2. The next questions concerned the cost and power requirements for empty barbettes and bays because empty turrets have a cost and power requirement.

An empty turret of one d-ton has four different costs depending on the number of weapons they can hold in addition to the cost of the individual weapons makes no sense when an empty barbette or bay costs nothing but volume makes no sense.

Why does an empty turret have four different costs and a power requirement when empty barbettes and bays have the same cost and power requirement of cargo space when they all do not have weapons installed?

3. The fifth of my two questions, concerned the ammunition for mass drivers and rail guns, which probably has been answered here but I have somehow over looked.

On MgT HG 2e p. 27 a small mass driver bay has enough ready ammunition bin/magazine for six attacks before needing to be replenished.

From the information available in the table to storage enough ammunition to replenish the ready ammunition one time would require twelve d-tons of space with a cost of Cr120,000.

While working on the post a topic notification was sent to my inbox when I clicked on submit there pane returned with a message about the post being invalid and to try submitting again. The second time worked which convinces me that the Web Gremlins are real critters.;-)

 

[Jeraa]

2. The next questions concerned the cost and power requirements for empty barbettes and bays because empty turrets have a cost and power requirement.

An empty turret of one d-ton has four different costs depending on the number of weapons they can hold in addition to the cost of the individual weapons makes no sense when an empty barbette or bay costs nothing but volume makes no sense.

Why does an empty turret have four different costs and a power requirement when empty barbettes and bays have the same cost and power requirement of cargo space when they all do not have weapons installed?

All weapon sytems start out the same way - and empty section of hull (of the appropriate volume) and an empty hardpoint. These things cost nothing.

Next, you install the various mechanisms and weapons. For barbettes and bays, these two things are integrated. You can't install the various weapon mounts and fire control systems without also installing the weapons themselves.

For turrets, this is a two part process. You first install the turret and fire control. Then you separately install the weapons. That is why an empty turret has costs and power requirements. You already installed half the weapon system. The weapon itself and the firecontrol/mechanisms are two separate pieces for turrets.

An empty turret and an empty barbette/bay is not the same thing. An empty barbette/bay is just an empty room. An empty turret has various mechanisms and electronics already installed. You can designate a spacefor a turret the exact same way you designate a space for a barbette/bay. Just don't install the actual turret until you want to install the weapon, and there is no cost/power requirement.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Jerra,

2. The next questions concerned the cost and power requirements for empty barbettes and bays because empty turrets have a cost and power requirement.

An empty turret of one d-ton has four different costs depending on the number of weapons they can hold in addition to the cost of the individual weapons makes no sense when an empty barbette or bay costs nothing but volume makes no sense.

Why does an empty turret have four different costs and a power requirement when empty barbettes and bays have the same cost and power requirement of cargo space when they all do not have weapons installed?

All weapon sytems start out the same way - and empty section of hull (of the appropriate volume) and an empty hardpoint. These things cost nothing.

Next, you install the various mechanisms and weapons. For barbettes and bays, these two things are integrated. You can't install the various weapon mounts and fire control systems without also installing the weapons themselves.

For turrets, this is a two part process. You first install the turret and fire control. Then you separately install the weapons. That is why an empty turret has costs and power requirements. You already installed half the weapon system. The weapon itself and the fire control/mechanisms are two separate pieces for turrets.

An empty turret and an empty barbette/bay is not the same thing. An empty barbette/bay is just an empty room. An empty turret has various mechanisms and electronics already installed. You can designate a space for a turret the exact same way you designate a space for a barbette/bay. Just don't install the actual turret until you want to install the weapon, and there is no cost/power requirement.

Designating a hardpoint on which to attach a mount and weapon does not take up space or have a cost. Installing a fixed mount has a cost but does not take up space. Turrets without weapons take up space, require power, and has a cost. Adding weapons increases the power requirement, with the exception of sandcasters and missile racks, and cost.

The Scout/Courier of p. 94 has a double turret designated which requires 1 d-ton space and has a cost of MCr0.5 which is an empty turret. I started a walk through of the design process using the Scout/Courier and I think that the power for the turret is not represented in the Power Requirements. Unfortunately, I have miss placed the spreadsheet I was using to ensure my math was correct so I may wrong about the turret power.

Have you looked at the illustration of the dorsally mounted particle beam barbette of the Gazelle on p. 130?

The barbette looks like a large turret to me and appears to be able to rotate the business end of the particle beam weapons.
On the maneuver drive housings are where the turrets are mounted the right side turret is shown in some detail. The barbette looks like, in my opinion, to be an over-sized turret. Further a barbette was a fix for the extremely poor ventilation experienced in early turrets.

From http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/turrets.htm

"In the 1870s the air within the turrets was so vitiated as to be unfit for respiration, and had not a portion of the turret roof been continually lifted it is probable that the air would have soon become so bad as to render it uninhabitable. The consequences attending such a state of affairs during the heat of an action, when it would be most likely to occur, are sufficiently obvious. The remedy is evidently found in the entire removal of the roof, and firing the gun over the top of the tower instead of through a port-hole. In that case a complete circle of range can be obtained without moving the turret itself. This is, in fact, the barbette system that may be said to have reached its climax in the British battleship Benbow, in which a 110-ton gun was mounted on the top of a tower at either end of the superstructure. "

Of the Traveller rule sets GURPS Traveller designated the barbette as heavy turrets all the other have kept the inaccurate designation of barbette. However, with the exception of MgT, the other Traveller rule sets clearly classify a barbette as a turret. CT LBB5 HG 2e the Turret Table has the price and power for the weapon and the d-tons of the turret, while CT LBB 2 empty turrets had a separate cost and the weapons added to the cost.

Thank you and everyone else who has replied to this topic and my other ones I appreciate the responses.

 

[Jeraa]

Yes, a barbette is a turret. But it is not a turret.

It is a turret in that it contains a weapon, can traverse, and do all the other things a turret can do.

As far as the rules are concerned, it is not a turret. Turret weapons and barbette weapons are two separate things. Turret weapons have fixed, single, double, triple, or guad weapon mounts and can fit any combination of turret weapons. Barbette weapons, while being mounted in a turret, are not turret weapons - everything is contained in a single package.

Barbettes are prepackaged weapon systems, with everything needed already included. You just need to slot it into the ship. In essence, the rules treat barbettes as miniature weapon bays.
Turrets are customizable. Everything in them is selected and installed separately, which is why empty turrets have a cost/power requirement.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Jerra,

Yes, a barbette is a turret. But it is not a turret.

It is a turret in that it contains a weapon, can traverse, and do all the other things a turret can do.

As far as the rules are concerned, it is not a turret. Turret weapons and barbette weapons are two separate things. Turret weapons have fixed, single, double, triple, or quad weapon mounts and can fit any combination of turret weapons. Barbette weapons, while being mounted in a turret, are not turret weapons - everything is contained in a single package.

Barbettes are prepackaged weapon systems, with everything needed already included. You just need to slot it into the ship. In essence, the rules treat barbettes as miniature weapon bays.
Turrets are customizable. Everything in them is selected and installed separately, which is why empty turrets have a cost/power requirement.

All the capacitors and other specific components needed to make a single laser, fusion gun, particle beam, plasma gun, or plasma-pulse cannon are each part of a prepackaged weapon system. The targeting systems may or may not be built into the weapon.

There are probably three components that make up missile racks and sandcasters. The first part is the section that launches the missile or sand canister. The second part is the mechanism needed to feed a new missile/canister on to the launching mechanism from part three which is the area that the missile/canister reload is stored in the turret. Based on the details only single missile rack/sandcaster launcher might fit one d-tons of reloads in a one d-ton space if one of the missiles/canisters has been loaded on the rack/launcher.

Four different configurations with four different costs of a one d-ton turret is required to mount the available prepackaged weapon systems.

A single five d-ton barbette can handle the space needed larger weapons capacitors, targeting mechanisms, ammunition feeds, ammunition storage, and other components which with the exception of the missile barbette, appears to be a single weapon.

A missile barbette has five missile racks, twenty-five/2 d-tons of missiles in storage, targeting mechanisms, ammunition feeds and other components.

The whole idea of being able to swap the weapon systems in a turret and not being able to swap weapon systems in a barbette or bay makes no sense.

Oops, I made an error MT does not have a barbette and all particle accelerator/beam turrets mount one weapon.

 

[Condottiere]

If it swivels, it's a gunhouse.

If it opens a hatch, it's a bay.

The default for both is modular weapon systems designed to be easily installed.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

Once again thank you all for your replies and here is another review.

1. Turret weapon systems has two parts:
Part 1: Turret
The turret is a 1 d-ton structure that has targeting systems and other components not required by a specific weapon system
There are four turret configurations, each turret configuration requires 1 d-ton of space, 1 power point for Single weapon, Double double and Triple weapon turrets and 2 power points for a Quad weapon turret , and has a variable cost: Single weapon Cr200,000, Double weapon Cr500,000, Triple weapon Cr1,000,000, and Quad weapons Cr2,000,000

Part 2: Weapon
Each weapon system has specific components needed generate a laser beam, particle beam, fusion/plasma beam(?), or other energy used for offensive weapons.
One Missile Rack include the launcher, ammunition handling and storage systems with 12/1 d-ton of missiles.
One Sandcaster includes the launcher, canister handling and storage systems with 20/1 d-ton of canisters.

2. Barbette weapon systems has two parts:
Part 1: Barbette
The barbette is a 5 d-ton structure used to house a specific weapon system package. No cost or power is required. From earlier Traveller rule sets a barbette is considered a turret and appears to contain the gunner's stations targeting systems, ammunition feeds, ammunition storage, and other non-weapon components are part of the structure. In CT a barbette costs Cr4,000,000

Part 2: Weapon
Each package consists of capacitor, targeting system, ammunition feeds, ammunition storage, and other components not associated with the barbette's structure.

2. Bay weapon systems has two parts:
Part 1: Bay
Standard bay structures used to house a weapon package as a way of concentrating a lot of fire from a single weapon system and are built in 50 d-ton, 100 d-ton, and 500 d-ton units. From earlier Traveller rule sets and a number of other games the gunner stations, targeting systems, ammunition feeds, ammunition storage. and other non-weapon components are part of the structure. In CT any empty bay is Cr10,000 per d-ton.

Part 2: Weapon
Each package consists of capacitor, targeting systems, ammunition feeds, ammunition storage, gunner stations, and other components not associated with the barbette's structure.

The prevailing argument is that turrets can be installed empty while barbettes and bays have to be installed with the weapon.

All three structures are used to house weapons the only difference from the details I see is that the turret has all the non-weapon related components while the information on the bays and barbette indicate all the components are in a modular assembly that can be installed in any 5, 50, 100, 500 d-ton structure. There is no reason that a barbette or bays have to include the weapon system package to be installed. Further the barbette and bays are specifically designed structures, like a turret houses different weapons, to house different type weapon system packages and should have a cost.

There appears to be an issue with a 1 d-ton turret housing missile racks and sandcasters housing a magazine of 1 d-ton of missiles or canisters, feed system, and the launcher.

I have attempted to support my point view using a variety of sources without any success and I doubt that my summary will work either, but this the best I can do. I will try not continue the topic after today on the forum if anyone wishes to continue of the forum please email.