Help an old fool

Awesome stuff Simon.

Someone needs to take these two posts and sticky them - you wont find a much better description of heroquesting than this.
 
I have heard so many ideas on the internet surrounding this issue that are incomplete that I just have to tell the whole tale, because Hero Questing is the meat and potatoes of RuneQuest.

No GM should attempt to run a full fledged RuneQuest campaign without knowing the fundamentals of a Hero Questing. The original rules and the entire cosmology and design of Glorantha is based on the concept of Hero Questing.

Glorantha and the game’s relatively complex approach to mythology is heavily influenced by the work of Joseph Campbell. Joseph Campbell was an American professor, writer, and orator who is best known for his work in the fields of comparative mythology and comparative religion.

According to Campbell the stages of the hero are:

1. the hero is introduced to the world - the farmboy into the city, and the
city cop into the unfamiliar countryside. In STAR WARS you see Luke
Skywalker bored to death as a farmboy before he takes on the universe. In Glorantha this would be the first stages of your adventurer, and great pains were taken to nourish this concept in Griffin Mountain (still available as a reprint).

2. the call to adventure – a hero is presented with a problem or a challenge – Maybe the land is dying, as in the Arthur stories about the search for the Holy Grail. In STAR WARS again, it's Princess Leia's holographic message to Obi Wan Kenobi, who asks Luke to join in the quest. In Sherlock Holmes, it would be his first real case as a in the story A Study in Scarlett.

3. The hero is reluctant at first -Often at this point, the hero balks at the threshold of adventure. After all, he or she is facing the greatest of all fears -- fear of
the unknown. At this point Luke refuses Obi Wan's call to adventure, and returns to his aunt and uncle's farmhouse, only to find they have been barbqued by the Emperor's stormtroopers. Suddenly Luke is no longer reluctant, and is eager to undertake the adventure. He is motivated. In the story of King David, he doesn’t want to become a king. Frodo is reluctant to take the ring to Mordor, etc.

4. The hero is encouraged by an old man or a woman -By this time many stories will have introduced a Merlin-like character who is the hero's mentor. In JAWS it's the crusty Robert Shaw character who knows all about sharks; in the mythology of the Mary Tyler Moore Show, it's Lou Grant. In Lord of the Rings, it’s Gandalf. The mentor gives advice and sometimes magical weapons. This is Obi Wan Kenobi giving Luke Skywalker his father's light sabre. The mentor can go only so far with the hero. This concept was meticulously detailed in RuneQuest 3 where you had to become familiar with a Shaman or a Sorcerer before you could learn magic from him. Not only did you have to get to know him, but you had to pay him money, do favors for him, etc…in general the character has to become familiar with this old man or woman and in return the elder gives advice to the characters, magic, and sometimes gives them early adventures to go on. This could also be represented in the world by early associations with a rune cult. It is really important, if you are following this formula not to let adventurers get any real power without having to forge this friendship with the elder figure. It’s not really necessary for each character to do this in the beginning but the party should have at least one elder who can help them in the beginning.

5. the hero passes the threshold- The hero fully enters the special world of his story for the first time. This is the moment at which the story takes off and the adventure gets going. The balloon goes up, the romance begins, the plane or spaceship blasts off, the wagon train gets rolling. Dorothy sets out on the Yellow Brick Road. The hero is now committed to his journey... and there's no turning back. In original RuneQuest this did not begin with the first adventure. Again, Griffin Mountain gives a lot of guidelines as to how the first adventures should be structured to follow this ‘hero-quest’ idea. The hero passing the threshold is the hero going outside of the realm of his childhood. This is beautifully illustrated in the movie version of the Lord of the Rings when Sam seemingly makes the meaningless statement to the effect that this is the farthest he has ever gone from home. However, it is not meaningless, it is a very important element of the hero story. If it is missing from a campaign, and it almost always is, the players will always feel there is something missing, but they won’t be able to put their finger on it. The philosophy of the hero quest is that is it somehow a part of us, a part of our genetic makeup or our psychology and that we can recognize it in great stories (or recognize that it is missing).

6. The hero encounters tests and helpers -

The hero is forced to make allies and enemies in the special world, and to pass certain tests and challenges that are part of his training. In STAR WARS, the cantina is the setting for the forging of an important alliance with Han Solo, and the start of an
important enmity with Jabba The Hut. In CASABLANCA, Rick's Cafe is the setting for the "alliances and enmities" phase, and in many westersn it's the saloon where these relationships are established. The tests and challenges phase is represented in STAR WARS by the scene of Obi Wan teaching Luke about the Force, as Luke is made to
learn by fighting blindfolded. The early laser battles with the Imperial Fighters are another test which Luke passes successfully.

These elements can easily be picked out of the Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings. In the Lord of the Rings it is the various encounters with the Ringwraiths, the ents of the old forest, the barrow wight, and old Bill Ferny. These beginning adventures began culminated with the council where the fellowship was formed.

These preliminary adventures are tests to see if the characters have the mettle and the wherewithal to handle a real adventure. During these adventures the characters should meet some allies. In RuneQuest this was intended to be fulfilled through the teachers giving the characters training. Remember the one week of study or so that was required before making those experience rolls? This was the time that was supposed to be spent in roleplay developing some close ties with a teacher or teachers. These are not supposed to be nameless characters that fulfill the minor purpose of giving a character what he wants. They are supposed to be fully fleshed out characters of importance that provide opportunities for roleplay and significant plot elements.

7. The hero reaches the innermost cave.

The hero comes at last to a dangerous place, often deep underground, where the object of his quest is hidden. In the Arthurian stories the Chapel Perilous is the dangerous chamber where the seeker finds the Grail. In many myths the hero has to descend into hell to
retrieve a loved one, or into a cave to fight a dragon and gain a treasure. It's Theseus going into the Labyrinth to face the Minotaur. In STAR WARS it's Luke and company being sucked into the Death Star where they will rescue Princess Leia. Sometimes it's the
hero entering the headquarters of his nemesis; and sometimes it's just the hero going into his or her own dream world to confront his or hers worst fears... and overcome them.

This is supposed to be one of the turning points of the campaign. There is an adventure on the internet somewhere called the Grey Company which is a really good example of this particular plot element. The characters are finally noticed by some cult that would be of interest and value to them, but they must pass an interesting and challenging test to be able to join. This may be the first time the characters travel to one of the planes. In any case it should probably take place around the time characters are actually getting somewhere with their skills and abilities. (perhaps around 75% to 80%)

8. The hero encounters the supreme ordeal

This is the moment at which the hero touches bottom. He faces the possibility of death, brought to the brink in a fight with a mythical beast. For us, the audience standing outside the cave waiting for the victor to emerge, it's a black moment. In STAR WARS, it's the harrowing moment in the bowels of the Death Star, where Luke, Leia and company are trapped in the giant trash-masher. Luke is pulled under by the tentacled monster that lives in the sewage, and is held down so long the audience begins to wonder if
he's dead. E.T. momentarily appears to die on the operating table.

This is a critical moment in any story, an ordeal in which the hero appears to die and is born again. It's a major source of the magic of the hero myth. What happens is that the audience has been led to identify with the hero. We are encouraged to experience the
brink-of- -death feeling with the hero. We are temporarily depressed, and then we are revived by the hero's return from death.

This is the magic of any well-designed amusement park thrill ride. Space Mountain or The Great White Knuckler make the passengers feel like they're going to die, and there's a great thrill that comes from surviving a moment like that. This is also the trick of rites
of passage and rites of initiation into fraternities and secret societies. The initiate is forced to taste death and experience resurrection. You're never more alive than when you think you're going to die.

In my opinion this event should take place before anyone reaches 100% in any skill. It should be the adventure that leads to characters becoming Rune Priests or Rune Lords. This is sort of the initiation into the formal HERO QUEST. It may be the initial HERO QUEST in some campaigns.

9. The hero seizes the sword

Having survived death, beaten the dragon, slain the Minotaur, the hero now takes possession of the treasure he's come seeking. Sometimes it's a special weapon like a magic sword, or it may be a token like the Grail or some elixer which can heal the wounded land.

Sometimes the "sword" is knowledge and experience that leads to greater understanding and a reconciliation with hostile forces.

The hero may settle a conflict with his father or with his shadowy nemesis. In RETURN OF THE JEDI, Luke is reconciled with both, as he discovers that the dying Darth Vader is his father, and not such a bad guy after all.

The hero may also be reconciled with a woman. Often she is the treasure he's come to win or rescue, and there is often a love scene or sacred marriage at this point. Women in these stories (or men if the hero is female) tend to be SHAPE-SHIFTERS. They appear to
change in form or age, reflecting the confusing and constantly changing aspects of the opposite sex as seen from the hero's point of view. The hero's supreme ordeal may grant him a better understanding of women, leading to a reconciliation with the opposite sex.

In RuneQuest this may be the successful completion of a quest to the God realm or the reenactment of some great feat that a god or a previous hero has performed. In order to work perfectly, the players would be so involved in the plot by now that they forget they are even on a Hero Quest. At the end of the adventure all the pieces of the puzzle fall into place and the players suddenly realize that their characters have just rennacted some great event from history. Good GMs have a variety of different ways of handling this, and I don’t want to say too much, because it should be for GMs only.

10. The road back-

The hero's not out of the woods yet. Some of the best chase scenes come at this point, as the hero is pursued by the vengeful forces from whom he has stolen the elixir or the treasure. This is the chase as Luke and friends escape from the Death Star, with Princess
Leia and the plans that will bring down Darth Vader.

If the hero has not yet managed to reconcile with his father or the gods, they may come raging after him at this point. This is the moonlight bicycle flight of Elliott and E.T. as they escape from "Keys" (Peter Coyote), a force representing governmental authority.
By the end of the movie, Keys and Elliott have been reconciled, and it even looks like Keys will end up as Elliott's father. (The script not the final cut, guys).

This should be the beginning of the next phase of the campaign…THE HERO QUEST. This is where the high level action and heavy challenges come into play. If the characters have any debts to pay or any old scores to settle, their karma comes after them to bite them on the butt. These characters are tough now, and they can handle some hefty cinematic challenges (battles with dragons, chaotic entities, angry gods, etc.) The GM should try, at this point to weave the various threads of the adventure into an integrated whole if possible, so the players can eventually see the grand design of their campaign.


11. Resurrection

The hero emerges from the special world, transformed by his experience. There is often a replay here of the mock death-and-rebirth of stage 8, as the hero once again faces death and survives. Each ordeal wins him new command over the Force (cosmic powers). He is
transformed into a new being by his experience.

12. Return with the elixir

The hero comes back to his ordinary world, but his adventure would be meaningless unless he brought back the elixir, treasure, or some lesson from the special world. Sometimes it's just knowledge or experience, but unless he comes back with the exlixir or some boon to mankind, he's doomed to repeat the adventure until he does. Many
comedies use this ending, as a foolish character refuses to learn his lesson and embarks on the same folly that got him in trouble in the first place.

Sometimes the boon is treasure won on the quest, or love, or just the knowledge that the special world exists and can be survived. Sometimes it's just coming home with a good story to tell.

This can be perhaps the greatest challenge of the GM. The heroes accomplish some task that has inner meaning not only for the character – but for the player as well. The game evolves from just a story that is being told to some kind of lesson that has value for the lives of the players. Players will immediately know when the end of the story has come, because the whole tale will all tie together and make sense and have a sense of closure. The dead god will be resurrected, the evil finally destroyed, or the needed rune will be brought back to the land. Ideally the players return HOME again.

This formula is what makes RuneQuest far better than any other roleplaying campaign where players go through a set of dungeons, have some battles with metal miniatures, and bring back the sword to the dale. The Hero Quest gives meat and substance to the campaign and makes the players feel that somehow they were there, and in some sense, they, themselves, participated in the adventure.

Most of what I have written (except for the allusions to RPG games and Glorantha) can be found at the following website:

http://www.skepticfiles.org/atheist2/hero.htm
 
In retrospect, I don't want to sound like I am contradicting Soltakss, because he gave a really thorough explanation of what Hero Questing has come to mean in the Glorantha gaming community.

However they are only part of the application of the Hero Myth created by Campbell. I think it is really hard to understand these applications without first knowing where they came from, why they are in the game, and how they fit into a general campaign. From there you can see how the other applications came about and how Campbell's term for stations (the stages of a hero) came to be applied to the stages of the renactment of a myth.

Its also possible to run HeroQuests that don't involve the reenactment of a myth, the travel to other planes, changing myths, etc. The important thing is that the various stations of the hero myth as defined by Campell are enacted by the characters in some way. It may not seem traditional according to some RuneQuest players, but it is acceptable.
 
If I ever meet Joseph Campbell (I know he's dead) I would give him a really good kicking.

He has turned (for most RQers) a complex and beautiful thing in to a series of tick boxes.

When did Myth become only understandable in terms of semi post-structuralism?

I think Harry Harrison's words should remind us not to put all our faith (sic) in Campbell.
 
Thanks for the Campbell summary, it is always useful for HeroQuesting, especially in Glorantha.

Arlaten said:
In retrospect, I don't want to sound like I am contradicting Soltakss, because he gave a really thorough explanation of what Hero Questing has come to mean in the Glorantha gaming community.

Contradict all you like - I've got a thick skin :) - after all, I'm no particular expert on HeroQuesting.

Arlaten said:
However they are only part of the application of the Hero Myth created by Campbell. I think it is really hard to understand these applications without first knowing where they came from, why they are in the game, and how they fit into a general campaign. From there you can see how the other applications came about and how Campbell's term for stations (the stages of a hero) came to be applied to the stages of the renactment of a myth.

I've read a fair amount of Campbell and a lot of it makes sense. However, you can't always apply the whole myth-schema to every HeroQuest.

For example, not every HeroQuestor is reluctant. Sure, many are as they are forced on a quest or get dragged into a quest, but in Glorantha many HeroQuestors are positively enthusiastic and want to go on HeroQuests.

Not all Quests involve the wise old woman or mentor. Many do and they are great for providing atmosphere and mystery. Sometimes they have the mentor, but he appears as someone to give advice or guidance during the quest.

Also, some of Campbell's stages can be shortened to a certain extent, so the Resurrection and Return of the Elixir can be used together rather than as separate stages. Not always, but sometimes.

But, yes, Campbell is the most authorative source for HeroQuesting, especially Gloranthan HeroQuesting, but he is not the be-all and end-all.

Arlaten said:
Its also possible to run HeroQuests that don't involve the reenactment of a myth, the travel to other planes, changing myths, etc. The important thing is that the various stations of the hero myth as defined by Campell are enacted by the characters in some way. It may not seem traditional according to some RuneQuest players, but it is acceptable.

Of course it is. In Glorantha, most HeroQuests are re-enactments of myths because that is what has been written up. But any Quest, not just magical HeroQuests, can follow the standard path. Someone avenging the loss of his family would go on a quest with exactly the same format, but the rewards would be different - his Return would be the return to normality, his Resurrection would be the realisation that vengeance is not everything and his Elixir would be the satisfaction of having avenged his family's death and the realisation that he is free of that particular desire. Nothing magical there, but a quest nonetheless.
 
First of all Campbell and his works came first. Greg Stafford saw them and applied them to his world. Why would you want to kick the foundation of the game setting you enjoy (if you enjoy roleplaying in Glorantha)?

Second of all, the what you call the tickboxes (the stations) define the RuneQuest concept of Hero Questing.

And then thirdly, to help someone understand a complex and beautiful thing, it has to be broken down into smaller more understandable portions. This is what this thread is about.

Stafford was greatly influenced by the ideas on mythology of Joseph Campbell, and echoes of Campbell's work are to be found in many aspects of Glorantha; for instance the story of the "God Learners" can be seen as an exercise on the implications of Campbell's idea of a unifying monomyth, and the story of Prince Argrath an exploration of Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces. More abstractly, Campbell's idea that myths are how we shape our lives deeply informs the picture of life in Glorantha throughout the game world's publication history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorantha
 
Arlaten wrote:

Its also possible to run HeroQuests that don't involve the reenactment of a myth, the travel to other planes, changing myths, etc. The important thing is that the various stations of the hero myth as defined by Campell are enacted by the characters in some way. It may not seem traditional according to some RuneQuest players, but it is acceptable.

soltakks wrote:

Of course it is. In Glorantha, most HeroQuests are re-enactments of myths because that is what has been written up. But any Quest, not just magical HeroQuests, can follow the standard path.

HeroQuesting confused me for a long time because I kept looking for the rules for HeroQuesting, and I couldn't find them in any rulebooks or supplements. Everything I found online concerned concepts I couldn't understand. What was God Time? How could a myth be changed? Then I found out that HeroQuesting was based on the principles of Joseph Campbell's philosophy concerning the hero myth.

I agree that all the portions (stations) of the myth don't have to be followed, but I just want everyone to understand the basic principles of HeroQuesting from the horse's mouth (so to speak) because we now have the opportunity to correct a mistake that was made long ago with Runequest 2 and Runquest 3. There's no need for beginners to get confused. :D

What has become termed as the HEROQUEST is smaller 'quest' cycle within the larger 'quest' cycle of the character's life. It is defined by certain stages, and everyone should be familiar with them. Not all of the stages have to be followed...but the general idea is to follow the stages. This is how you can make up your own HeroQuest. Although I certainly agree that some of the ways of implementing the quest that you have outlined are intriguing notions and they are based on some of the myths that Greg Stafford wrote.

I believe that the Elixir station was originally meant to bring home a Rune or a Rune item (object, whatever), hence the name RuneQuest. I don't have any hard evidence to back this up. However, a lot of resistance to the idea of Runic objects in MRQ could be eased by making them the object of quests (like magic crystals in RuneQuest 2) rather than making them a requirement of for common magic (Rune Magic) which is supposed to be...well, common. Currently there is no standard reward for going on such a quest...and I really don't think there should be. But, Rune Items could be one reason to go on such a quest.
 
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