Ground Combat: Weapon add ons/options

[Daro_Khan]

i have done a lot of searching thruogh all the books and trying to get the forum search engine to work

but ...to save time in digging anymore


Does anyone know of a personal weapon *addon/mod" limit?


for example this is what i can do with a auto pistol and sniper rifle and even a bow

just seems that weapons can get very complicated very fast....i did just read the central supply catalog but that info needs to soak in abit more

(tl6)AutoPistol(pistol)(3d6-3)(mag15)

Silencer (TL 8): A silencer can be added to any slug thrower with
Auto 4 or less, masking the sound produced by firing. (–4 DM to
detect.) Cr. 250.

Gun Cam 
(TL8) A small rapid-recording camera placed on the
barrel of a firearm, the gun cam is a useful tool for post-combat
evaluation and training. The camera takes several seconds of
recording around the pulling of the weapon’s trigger, allowing for
slow-motion playback to see what the shooter was doing right or
wrong – or for the verification of kills. The gun cam costs Cr. 150 and
has an Availability of 7+.

Laser Sight 
(TL 10): Integrated optics and laser sights give an extra
+1 DM bonus to any attack that has been aimed (see page 61 for
the aim action). Cr 100. At TL 10, x-ray lasers and improved display
technology removes the tell-tale ‘red dot’ of a vislight laser. Cr 200.

Secure Weapon (TL 10): A secure weapon requires authentication in
some fashion (scanning the user’s DNA or iris patterns, entering a
password, transmission of an unlocking code from a comm) before
it can be fi red. Cr. 100.

Computer
intelligent Weapon (TL 13): 
The TL 13 upgrade adds Computer/1 to any weapon.
Cr 5,000.

Spec Combat (slug pistols) specialisation 2
Cr 2500

Programs:
Intelligent Interface (TL12) 
Cr 100

Expert Combat (slug pistols) 2
Cr 10,000
Expert Program Helps if the diffificulty is...
Rating/1 Difficult (–2 DM) or easier
Rating/2 Very Diffi cult (–4 DM) or easier
"[(+1DM)]"

Bio-Mass Range Finder (TL10) Using sophisticated density and
IR recognition scanning, the computerised scope draws reliable
outlines of where living targets are, despite up to twelve inches of
inorganic material between target and firer. This eliminates up to 2
points of DM penalty from Cover. Costs Cr. 500.
TL12 3-D imaging and motion tracking is added to the scope. This
eliminates up to 4 points of DM from Cover. Costs Cr. 750.

(TL8)Sniper Rifle(3d6+3)(4)

Silencer (TL 8): A silencer can be added to any slug thrower with
Auto 4 or less, masking the sound produced by firing. (–4 DM to
detect.) Cr. 250.

gun Cam 
(TL8) A small rapid-recording camera placed on the
barrel of a firearm, the gun cam is a useful tool for post-combat
evaluation and training. The camera takes several seconds of
recording around the pulling of the weapon’s trigger, allowing for
slow-motion playback to see what the shooter was doing right or
wrong – or for the verification of kills. The gun cam costs Cr. 150 and
has an Availability of 7+.


Magnification Scope 

(TL4) When Aiming with a rifle, the firer can
reduce the effective range of the attack for the purposes of DMs by
up to 2 range bands. Costs Cr. 25.

Laser Sight 

(TL 8): Integrated optics and laser sights give an extra
+1 DM bonus to any attack that has been aimed (see page 61 for
the aim action). Cr 100. At TL 10, x-ray lasers and improved display
technology removes the tell-tale ‘red dot’ of a vislight laser. Cr 200.

Gyrostabiliser (TL 9):

Stabilisers can be added to any weapon with
recoil, reducing the recoil by one point at the cost of 300 credits. -1 recoil

Computer

Intelligent Weapon (TL 13): 
The TL 13 upgrade adds Computer/1 to any weapon.
Cr 5,000.

Spec
Combat (slug Rifle) specialisation 2
Cr 2500

Programs:
Intelligent Interface (TL) 
Cr 100

Expert Combat (slug Rifle) 2
Cr 10,000

Expert Program Helps if the diffificulty is...
Rating/1 Difficult (–2 DM) or easier
Rating/2 Very Diffi cult (–4 DM) or easier
"[(+1DM)]"

Bio-Mass Range Finder (TL10) Using sophisticated density and
IR recognition scanning, the computerised scope draws reliable
outlines of where living targets are, despite up to twelve inches of
inorganic material between target and firer. This eliminates up to 2
points of DM penalty from Cover. Costs Cr. 500.
TL12 3-D imaging and motion tracking is added to the scope. This
eliminates up to 4 points of DM from Cover. Costs Cr. 750.

 

[phavoc]

I don't think there's a firm rule because it would be difficult to formulate one that was both reasonable and logical and worked all the times.

You really should just use common sense. If you have a pistol, it's reasonable to mount a laser scope. But no camera, or scope. Granted you could do so, bu then your pistol really becomes more like a submachinegun in size. An assault rifle will allow you to have all kinds of upgrades, but it's also going to be big and bulky - just like it should be.

 

[AdrianH]

There are in reality such things as scopes for pistols, as well as stocks (either folding metal or hollow which also act as holsters). Some pistols can fire fully automatically, making them small submachineguns.

Note that silencers are for the most part suppressors. The true silencer as depicted in Hollywood is pretty well a myth because most bullets travel at supersonic speed, producing the same sort of sonic boom as a supersonic aircraft - except that with something that small, it's more a sonic crack. What that means is that you can probably hear that a shot has been fired but you won't have much chance figuring out by sound where it came from.

The gun cam is possible, especially if you raise the TL a point or two for a pistol-mounted one. There are some pretty small video cameras available even today; it should be possible to make one no bigger than a laser sight or scope.

But a computer is going to need to be really small if it's going to fit onto a pistol. Still, at TL13 it's not entirely unbelievable, especially compared with some of the other things available at TL13.

Of course, each item adds weight and upsets the weapon's balance. Add too many and you get a very fancy gadget which is next to useless in an actual fight compared to someone who just pulls out a reasonably balanced pistol and shoots you while you're entering the password to log onto your gun computer. :twisted:

 

[locarno24]

There's also a logical limit to how many 'sights' a weapon can use at once.

If you have the Ballistic Tracing Lenses augment, that surely can't do you too much good if you're not looking at the target but staring down a CG image in a bio-mass range-finder. Certainly a laser sight and Biomass rangefinder can't combine terribly effectively.

It's not impossible to combine sights - a BMRF with a 'zoom' function doubles up as a telescopic sight, for example, or something akin to an ACOG might combine telescopic and laser sight effects pretty efficiently. But there must be some common sense applied to how many similar effects you can benefit from at once.

 

[Daro_Khan]

good thoughts guys

common sense yes ... i was in the military ..it just this game can get into a lot of details hehe :roll:

am sure sights can have many things added besides if it has a computer then the sight technically is a holo screen within the scope which could bring what I need up when I need it


its just making weapons into a spreadsheet just looks like its going to have to be manual added if it has mods to it which is fine

just takes awhile to add all the *buffs to a weapon*

Not to mention a bio-scope that reduces the effect of cover .....eh ....seems alittle op as a good high level bio-scope can negate -4 cover ....only thing you have left is to crouch and dodge ......i dont think prone and dodge will work lol

......also in plain text ...these items seem readily available so a GM would need to say what you can or cant buy....

see my GM and I have been ready all the books for over a month and we ready to play.
just seems ....money easy to get ..and some questionable mods are easy to get as well ...

increasing range mods
but ...reducing the effect of cover (bio scope) ....thats like 75% of what stops you from dieing in 6 seconds .....

anywho one last question for now ...

Do you guys ever use the s04 - central supply catalogue?

it has like new bullet types and ...bullet piercing natural effect for weapons ..seems to nerf mid range gear.....but also Nerf High range gear as-well

and dont get me started on plasma weapons ........seems like ..yeah .....spam smoke and aerosol .....hide ....even when in power Armour .....like really ....

just would like to learn some stuff about balancing am not the GM though ... but I help him make spreadsheets

 

[dragoner]

I use the CSC, though we are on the frontier in my campaign so all the gear isn't as readily accessible, and as much as it nerfs the other gear, it is a double edge sword cutting both ways, hitting players just as hard. Thus all the fancy gear isn't as useful if you are avoiding combat.

 

[Daro_Khan]

I use the CSC, though we are on the frontier in my campaign so all the gear isn't as readily accessible, and as much as it nerfs the other gear, it is a double edge sword cutting both ways, hitting players just as hard. Thus all the fancy gear isn't as useful if you are avoiding combat.

id normally only fight when its on my terms

anything else is hide and run lol

+6 effect does auto one damage that with csc bullets ....

get hurt even faster BUT .....be kinda cool ...medics can actually say (just a flesh wound now) lol


another question

how do you guys *weight* ammo ? for in game?

am not doing any mass atm ...but a realistic approach....somewhat

i know the csc adds belts to hold ammo but even those dont have a mass requirement which really made be face-palm

my idea would be you could hold a % of ammo based upon the *weight* of your clothing/Armour *which you are WEARING not carrying thus it isn't added to your total mass to be Encumbered the clothing that is. they add *pockets* based on the weight or something

p.s try to keep response to in-game rules ideas i want my game fun ....not math or ..keeping track of every detail ....to the weight of a shoe lace...

 

[dragoner]

I try to stick with normal combat loadouts, such as nine sticks of SMG ammo in three pouches plus two taped together in the weapon (plus sidearm etc.); imo it isn't weight that becomes an issue such as the bulk of carrying too much. Once you get overloaded, you can't run and are noisy as hell, power armor like battle dress is different, maybe you can carry more, but bulk is still an issue.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Seems to me that a mod to a weapon would just be a DM added. The gun is not the star of the quest.

 

[Daro_Khan]

indeed

weight isn't a issue ...bulk is and noise

standard load-out for my C7 was 4 30clip mags in my tech vest and 1 in the rifle and my bayonet in the center top of my vest as well.

pistol? maybe 2 clips really ....when you have body Armour ....pistol is meh lol irl

 

[dragoner]

Yeah, sidearms are usually a nuisance, but you have it down for the loadout, and that is what I go with.

 

[locarno24]

but ...reducing the effect of cover (bio scope) ....thats like 75% of what stops you from dieing in 6 seconds .....

It also should not work in all circumstances - the GM needs to apply a bit of thought.
The BMRF gives you a farsight XR10/astral aim/etc style view of the target, despite the intervening cover. This is fine, but doesn't actually help if the cover is (for example) the structural bulkhead of an armoured starship because your bullets are not going to punch through it; whilst you might be able to 'see' the whole target you're still stuck aiming at exposed bits of the target's body.

 

[simonh]

Note that silencers are for the most part suppressors. The true silencer as depicted in Hollywood is pretty well a myth because most bullets travel at supersonic speed, producing the same sort of sonic boom as a supersonic aircraft - except that with something that small, it's more a sonic crack. What that means is that you can probably hear that a shot has been fired but you won't have much chance figuring out by sound where it came from.

Agreed, to be properly effective you also have to reduce the amount of propellant in the cartridge so it's subsonic. Of course that drastically cuts the range and damage, but if you're going all out for stealth the idea is to achieve complete tactical surprise at close range and you just shoot them a few more times. You really ought to be shooting them 3 or 4 times anyway.

The gun cam is possible, especially if you raise the TL a point or two for a pistol-mounted one. There are some pretty small video cameras available even today; it should be possible to make one no bigger than a laser sight or scope.

Sure. There are plenty of palm-sized micro-copters around with decent wireless cameras. Not a problem.

But a computer is going to need to be really small if it's going to fit onto a pistol. Still, at TL13 it's not entirely unbelievable, especially compared with some of the other things available at TL13.

Bear in mind there are video converter cables around now with as much processing power in them as the first iPhone. Moore's law probably equates to over x1000 per TL. I can imagine a lightweight 3" fold-out screen on a handgun, like the ones on camcorders. There was a UK TV show back in the 90s called Ultraviolet, which was Cops Vs Vampires. They fitted camcorders to their guns because vampires didn't show up on cameras, and that was 15 years ago.

Of course, each item adds weight and upsets the weapon's balance. Add too many and you get a very fancy gadget which is next to useless in an actual fight compared to someone who just pulls out a reasonably balanced pistol and shoots you while you're entering the password to log onto your gun computer. :twisted:

The fingerprint scanners on the new iPhones are almost instant and are area-scan so they don't require a finger swipe. I can imagine a scope with a built-in retina scanner.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Nerhesi]

You quickly have to get change the game if you're being shot by anything other than a side-arm.

Things get very interesting and tactical when you're using battle dress with prismatic aerosols, smoke dischargers that are sporting grav packs for movement.

But yes, in general, even taking into account dodging behind a -4 cover (-6 total) is easily swept aside by someone using an advanced site that reduce cover penalty (not by shooting through but by aiming easier) and the slew of modifiers from telescopic sights, aiming, skill and characteristic.

Basically, dont have competent enemies shooting your group with any sort of armor piercing ammo (AP, HEAP, DSAP) unless your group is in battle-dress. Unless of course you want the 1-hit unconscious style rounds.

 

[Daro_Khan]

so for what am understanding for the Bio-scope ....is yes it may allow them to be seen and reduce cover by -4....

it really should depend WHAT cover they are behind ....a big metal dumpster ...a thick brick wall ...

a Thick side of a car....really the gm could impose a DM based upon the difficulty of the shot *only there head shows ect ect

but why do that? when it just nerfs the bio-scope :/ .....imo i thinking it should just be removed ..and not used lol

really all that scope should do is allow you to SPOT people better that are in cover that really doesn't stop bullets. but then ....what the point of the scope anyway lol

-_- imo seeing people with that scope IRL just help me seem them sooner ,...and see what sticking out of cover ....it by any means am actually going to hit something smaller yes there a chance .....but -4 ...is drastic ...

sadly difficulty of a shot is just based on range
hmm if only there was a difficulty on a shot based on body parts..

Head Difficult -2
Chest Average 0
Left/right arm Difficult -2
Left/right hand very Difficult -4
Left/right leg Difficult -2
Left/right foot very Difficult -4

but as you can see this reduce or nullifies the USE of the Bio-scope anyway and its a added step ...

really worth it?



another quick question . in the CSC it says this about Bows

While arrows, thrown rocks and boomerangs might seem to be
beneath contempt, travellers need to be aware that even the most
primitive weapons can kill in skilled hands. Some thrown weapons
are heavy enough to be considered to have a Heft modifier. Bows
also have a Heft modifier but this is more absolute than usual – a
character cannot cock a crossbow or pull a bow if he does not have
a strength bonus at least equal to the weapon’s Heft modifier. He
can however shoot a crossbow which has been cocked for him by a
stronger person.
Bows, Crossbows, Slings and Thrown Weapons are all considered to
be specializations within the Athletics skill

when I look at bows I only see a recoil ....no heft is the recoil the heft in this regard as-well?

also seems there is athletic skills for bow and crossbow and sling separately ...Mercenary book just has (archery)

tsk tsk choices in which skills to allow as-well ....-_-

 

[dragoner]

The old concealment vs cover argument; as GM I would lay down that if you aren't exposed at all, you can't be hit, at least if behind cover that can't be fired through such as a meter thick concrete wall.

Once the weapon is upgraded to its ultimate form where it fires itself, next is to upgrade the hands that hold it, such as building automated combat armor, which I have in my campaign milieu. It has normal str and end, but superhuman dex - think Bishop in Aliens and the knife game, and can use all normal equipment. It keeps the casualties lower, takes less than 18 years to make ... problems remain ... like viruses.

War may change, but the character of the individual does not.

I have been, or will be exploring these ideas in my military campaign here - http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/homage-to-peladon

 

[simonh]

The old concealment vs cover argument; as GM I would lay down that if you aren't exposed at all, you can't be hit, at least if behind cover that can't be fired through such as a meter thick concrete wall.

Exactly right. If it's not possible to hit the target, then modifiers aren't relevant to start with. If it is possible, then advanced targetting sensors that give you more information about the position and movements of the target should be able to help.

The grey area is where a shot is made impossible by modifiers because it's not possible to roll a hit within the game mechanics, but then you layer the advanced sensor modifier on top and suddenly the shot becomes possible again. "I can't pin down this target, I don't have a shot. can I borrow your biodetector sight thingy?". What happened there? Was the shot actually possible or not?

In this latter case I'd rule that the shot is possible. Unless we can come up with a logical, robust and obviously correct ordering of modifiers and their precise meanings across all possible situations, which I doubt, then you just mush all the modifiers together and only worry about the result. The game system just has a much lower resolution that 'reality', or even the narative possibilities within fiction, so that's just an edge case not worth worrying about.

Simon Hibbs

 

[dragoner]

If the weapon can see around the corner, which it could as well with say radar, then it can anticipate the shot and fire as the target exposes itself; bringing a whole new meaning to "weapons free".

 

[simonh]

If the weapon can see around the corner, which it could as well with say radar, then it can anticipate the shot and fire as the target exposes itself; bringing a whole new meaning to "weapons free".

Or you could use such a sight to accurately target with an indirect weapon such as the XM25. In fact, are there stats for anything like the XM25 in any of the supplements?

Simon Hibbs

 

[dragoner]

Or you could use such a sight to accurately target with an indirect weapon such as the XM25. In fact, are there stats for anything like the XM25 in any of the supplements?

Simon Hibbs

I've always just looked at the higher level grenade launchers being like that, don't know if the supplements state anything like that but imo, the user can designate targets for the grenades; also it can be pulled from a Hammer's Slammers story iirc "Don't Mean Nothing".