Grapple Problems

[IKI]

The Second Edition Grapple rules are very unclear:
Do you need to make a touch attack (the steps doesn't mention them) to start a grapple?
Do you still damage the character if you successfully garapple the target?
My GM says it works like this: You first need to make a mele touch attack (standard action or attack action), then you make a grapple check, if successfull: you are grappling. Then you need to spend other action to damage the opponent in the next round.
If he is correct, rules like human shield do not work.
Example whit the new rules: I successfully grapple my first target (standard action), I cannot damage my target, I get my ass kikked by the other targets becuase I cannot dodge or parry.

A little help if possible.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

The Second Edition Grapple rules are very unclear:
Do you need to make a touch attack (the steps doesn't mention them) to start a grapple?
Do you still damage the character if you successfully garapple the target?
My GM says it works like this: You first need to make a mele touch attack (standard action or attack action), then you make a grapple check, if successfull: you are grappling. Then you need to spend other action to damage the opponent in the next round.
If he is correct, rules like human shield do not work.
Example whit the new rules: I successfully grapple my first target (standard action), I cannot damage my target, I get my ass kikked by the other targets becuase I cannot dodge or parry.

A little help if possible.

Your GM sounds about right.

Grappling is a standard action which provokes attacks of opportunity. Even if you succeed in your move, any damage dealt to you via an AOO, means the grapple fails. (I think, unless you have both hands free, you are also at -4 to the attempt too, at least, this is mentioned in Pathfinder). Once you are 'grappling', (i.e., in the next round), the 'grappler' AND the 'grapplee' can perform one of the actions on pages 200 - 201, provided the grappler can maintain his hold, (a successful grapple attack again, which provokes further AOO, but NOT from the grappled opponent). This 'maintained' grapple is a normal grapple attempt in the Conan rules, but in Pathfinder, you get a +5 to the attempt.

If you are able, you may drag your opponent, and, presumably, protect yourself with his body, in certain grapple circumstances.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

And, from how I understand it, your 'melee touch attack' is your grapple attempt, i.e., you dont have to make an attack then a grapple attack, its just the one attack.

 

[Jeffreywns]

A grapple attack is mostly used by creatures as a natural attack and in instances where human beings are attempting to take someone down with superior numbers or when lethal force isn't desired. Busting out the grapple against armed forces that outnumber you is an odd combat tactic.

 

[Vambelte]

In my opinion you make the melle touch attack, as an attack action, if you suceed you make a grapple check and, if you get another sucees, you already roll for damage.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

In my opinion you make the melle touch attack, as an attack action, if you suceed you make a grapple check and, if you get another sucees, you already roll for damage.

Well, its not the same game, but in the Pathfinder rpg, its a bit more clear, and it states that a grapple attack is a standard action, and you need to make a check in order to have the chance of damaging your opponent in the next round.

 

[Clovenhoof]

We used the Pathfinder method for a while in our Conan game, but while I was happy with it at first, soon problems started to occur.

The main issue is what Yyrkoon said: Grappling is a _Standard Action_ there, meaning you can't use any iterative attacks in the same round. Which means your opponent can wrest the tactical initiative from you on his turn. So when it's your turn again you can't do anything except try to get back in control. All the time nobody hurts each other. It's like an endless side-out scoring volleyball match, where only the "serving" side is able to score.

Long story short, what we did with the Pathfinder rules was change the Grapple action to use an ATTACK instead of a Standard Action.

Over the time, we abandoned the Pathfinder approach again and went back to the Standard Conan one, not because it were better but because we always have these rules at hand and can look them up more easily.

So for the record, the correct procedure in Conan RPG is:

1. Attack of Opportunity, if applicable
2. Melee attack (Grab) vs. normal Defense. It's not a Touch Attack because grabbing your opponent's broadsword blade isn't going to do you much good, so your opponent can choose to Dodge or Parry you.
3. Grapple Check = BAB + Str (+Size) mod vs. Grapple Defence (10+BAB+Str+Size); if successful, you are grappling your target AND deal unarmed damage, ignoring DR from Armour.
4. Maintain: move into opponent's square, may draw AoOs from non-grappling opponents.

All the above is resolved in a SINGLE ATTACK, leaving any iterative attacks you might have at your disposition. So yes, you may use your opponent as Human Shield from the moment you have successfully established a Grapple with him. In other words, your GM is mistaken.

Hope this helps.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Clovenhoof

Sounds like a decent solution to endless rounds of maintaining a grapple.

I think the addition that Pathfinder gave, e.g., the +4 to maintaining your grapple in the next round sort of solves the situation to an extent also.

 

[Vambelte]

Yeah Cloven, I have writen melle touch attack but we have always used a normal attack. My mistake there....

In the end I resolve grapple just like you do.

 

[treeplanter]

In 2nd edition it state Melee touch attack, wich mean you cannot use Parry, juste dodge. Wich make sense too me, since you could start a grapple by holding the shield or the shaft of a spear or axe.

 

[IKI]

I did send a mail to mongoose publishing asking these questions, and this is the answer I got:

Q1: Do you need to make a touch attack (the steps doesn't mention them) to start a grapple, and does this cost an action or is it part of the grapple?

R1: It is a touch attack (Starting a Grapple, p199)
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Q2: If I understand you correctelly: The Action Cost to initiate a grapple >>>depends on the grapple option you want to take. You initiate a grapple as a standard action if you take the "Attack an Opponent" option, as a Full round action if you take the Damage an opponent option. If grapple is successfull you deal damage either with a weapon (Attack an Opponent , or through the grapple itself (Damage an Oppontent Option), and you can use the Human Shield maneuver in the same round that you initiated the Grapple.

R2: See above to start a grapple. Once successful, you can choose from all the options on p200.
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Q3: If I have the Brawl or other feats that augments my unarmed damage, does the damage from the Damage Opponent grapple Option changes as well?

R3: No, not unless they specifically mention grappling.
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Q4: What happens if you have 2 or more attacks from high BAB: Can I choose between 2 different grapple options = 1 Pin and then 1 Damage an opponent?

R4: No - but you do get two chances to touch attack to start a grapple.
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Q5:So can my Martial Disciple with the Iron Banded Martial discipline do the following?: He successfull damages an oppontent with an Unarmed Attack => this triggers the Snapping mongoose ability => I make a Successfull Grapple check to initiate a grapple => I choose the Damage an Opponent option and damage my opponent again => this triggers the Human shield manuever because I damaged the opponent with a grapple.

R5: Can't see why not!