Grapple Armor Check Penalty?

[ChoppedInHalf]

Does the armor check penalty apply to grappling?

The rules don't say that it does, but it seems like it might apply.

I found no clarification in these forums.

Any ideas?

 

[Clovenhoof]

Since grappling requires a successful Melee attack roll, I'd say it's just like with any other melee attack: if you are Proficient with the armour you're wearing, you don't need to apply the armour check penalty.

 

[ChoppedInHalf]

Since grappling requires a successful Melee attack roll, I'd say it's just like with any other melee attack: if you are Proficient with the armour you're wearing, you don't need to apply the armour check penalty.

Actually, to start the grapple, you do a melee touch attack, and the armor check penalty should obviously not be a factor.

However, to successfully grapple you must now make a grapple check, which is not a melee attack by definition.

My question is, does the armor check penalty affect grapple checks. It affects tumbling checks, which are somewhat similar, so why not affect grapple checks also?

 

[flatscan]

Actually, to start the grapple, you do a melee touch attack, and the armor check penalty should obviously not be a factor.

However, to successfully grapple you must now make a grapple check, which is not a melee attack by definition.

My question is, does the armor check penalty affect grapple checks. It affects tumbling checks, which are somewhat similar, so why not affect grapple checks also?

Don't think so. Reading the rules for Grappling and Armour Check Penalties I'd say no. Although in the past I've said yes.

The section on Armour Check Penalties makes it seem like it only affects the skills listed and that's it. Am I wrong?

 

[ChoppedInHalf]

Don't think so. Reading the rules for Grappling and Armour Check Penalties I'd say no. Although in the past I've said yes.

Because I told you so, dude.

The section on Armour Check Penalties makes it seem like it only affects the skills listed and that's it. Am I wrong?

Right, but mistakes can be made, things overlooked by the designers. Using some common sense, if a guy gets an ACP (armor check penalty) to jumping around and rolling around on the ground, then it sure seems like he'd get it whilst wrestling. Can you deny that?

Yeah, I know D20 is gamist not simulationist, but game mechanics are not abstracted from reality completely arbitrarily, and this Conan 2e is gritty enough that I'd think this ACP vs grapple is a legit concern that needs to addressed by the designers. Us plebes could argue either way all day.

To be constructive, I would have to say that ACP does apply to grapple for the reasons I've stated above. I also realize that not all grappling involves true ground fighting or Greco-Roman wrestling (e.g. submission holds that bouncers use), but that level of body agility still needs to be utilized.

 

[Trodax]

Here's my take on it.

From a strict reading of the rules:
As long as you're proficient with the armour you're wearing, ACP does not affect grapple at all. If you are not proficient (a not very common situation, I would say), then you take the penalty on the melee touch attack roll.

From a realistic point if view:
Well maybe, but I'm not sure. As you say, grappling is not just rolling around on the ground; it can also be trying to maintain or break loose from a simple hold. I don't think wearing armour should hurt you so bad in those situations (don't know, though, as my experience with armoured wrestling is pretty non-existent ).
Also, remember that the ACP can be a pretty hefty penalty. If you apply it to grapple checks, this means characters in heavy armour will be very vulnerable to grappling. You might get situations where the armour-bearer is held fast by a naked guy with no chance of tearing loose. I think this could be a little bit cheesy.

From a 'genre-appropriate' point if view:
No, I don't think so. Most things Conan grapples with in the stories are big, hulking beasts (snakes, ape, and the occasional demon). In these types of grapples I don't think wearing armour should affect you adversely. It just wouldn't feel right if Conan took a -3 penalty just because he was wearing a mail shirt when grappling with a Man-Ape.

 

[Baduin]

Grappling was a very popular way of fighting in plate armour, since after pinning your foe you could kill him easily with your dagger. I wouldn't advise anyone unarmored to try grappling against an armored foe. Your holds wouldn't work (you cannot strangle an armoured combant, arm-locks don't do much good etc), and each his hit would be rather painful - imagine being kicked by an iron sabaton.