Gorn vs. Klingons (1000pt) breif AAR

deadshane

Mongoose
My largest fight to date. We're starting to get used to the rules mechanics and will begin using terrain rules from here on out.

My Gorn Fleet used tonight.

Albertosaurus-class Heavy Battlecruiser
Epanterias-K Variant Medium Cruiser X 2
Ceratosaurus-class Battle Destroyer X 3


The Klingon

C-7
D-6 x 3
F-5 x 3

I lost deployment and deployed mid-left of the board. The Klingons deployed mid board but at an angle that looked like he was going to try and hit hard from the flank.

I began moving with my destroyers after another loss in initiative. I turned them tight and moved laterally to the right. I also decided to boost the sheilds as I did not anticipate firing plasmas. After seeing that my opponent was moving his f-5's to counter my destroyers movement, I began moving my cruisers toward mid-board but cautiously. I intesified defensive fire with them all while they're flying in a 'Y' formation.

The Klingon continued to move his d-6's which were in a sort of eschelon formation toward the f-5's and in the direction of the gorn destroyers. Everything moved to within disrupter distance for some long range plinking away at the closest destroyer. Phasers were all still out of range and I weathered the storm with some moderate sheild damage and all drones stopped after support from my cruisers.

I did not return any fire.

TURN 2

Again, unsurprisingly, I lose initiative.

I push with my two fresh destroyers. The damaged one circles around to boost sheilds again and come around to cover the cruiser's tail-side in future turns. The two fresh destroyers move boldly forward unafraid of any damage. My opponent advances toward them with the f-5's and trys to get closer with the d-6's. He's wanting to take them out. I also move to cover them with my CM's and am surprised that I wind up under 12" away from one of the d-6's...still frontal armour however.

After all the fire is finished...both of my destroyers are themselves destroyed, but, my in-range plasma fire/phasers are JUST enough that I explode one d-6 and the other is crippled (thanks largely to the explosion) with 2 damage points left. Some light firing at the F-5's leaves some of their sheilds damaged.

TURN 3

Gorn win initiative.

My opponent seems like he may have been a bit 'disrupted by effectively losign two cruisers. He begins moving his f-5's to chase down my remaining destroyer and flank my cruisers. Two CM's reload plasma's, my BCH passes it's test to take evasive action. One d6 manages to use his tight turning to get behind my BCH safe from plasma fire. He ignores my ships that are reloading plasma and goes for the BCH again with his c-7 managing to get out of the FH arc of one of the S-Torps. He centerlines my BCH with the C-7.

My BCH fires first...launching the forward plasma at a careless F5...taking it to 0 damage. the other plasma's on the Starboard side along with all the phasers go into the c-7 causing some sheild damage and 2 lucky phaser internals. The d6 and C7 both unleash into the BCH but do very little thanx to the evasive maneuvering (dodged 6 drones in this manner). One internal critical hit and sheilds down to 17 is my opponents reward. My CM phaser fire roll poorly but reduce the c-7's sheilds to 2 as they're shooting into the rear and side of the ship. The phaser's on the other side take some long range shots at the crippled d6 finishing it off.

TURN 3

Gorn again win initiative....amazing.

The Klingon decides it's time to bug out. Both the D6 and C7 put all power to engines to gain extra movement in a direction that the cruisers cannot pursue. One reloaded cruiser manages to get the c-7 in it's forward arc however within 12"....it has a lot of rear phasers however. The F-5's angle for an escape as well and reharge sheilds.

My opponent tells me his intentions of warping out next turn.

I tell him "not so fast" as my cruiser launches a full spread of plasma into the Heavy Battlecruiser's '6'. After firing his 4 rear phasers only two dice of torpedoes make it in dropping the sheilds and doing significant damage. Other cruiser is well out of range/R-torp arc. The c-7 is almost crippled. My BCH fires it's Port S at extreme range for another d6 of damage on the C-7 which I manage 3....only one away from crippling it and keeping it from escaping. I manage a critical and do another point however and the c-7 is now crippled and unable to warp out.

My opponent concedes.


THINGS I LEARNED

Klingons cannot advance at all against Gorn with enhanced sheilds. It takes to many ships to silence even a destroyer. Gorn are BRUTAL in a close fight. (duh)

I did very well supporting all of my ships with each other. Between my formation and defensive fire....the klingon was having a hard go at it.

I picked out the least maneuverable ship in his fleet, the C7 and used it as a "point to get to". It had a very hard time keeping out of my forward arc of fire. I think this is the way to handle fleets that are faster...pick the biggest and slowest one and MAKE your opponent defend it.

This fleet that I use is capable of being quite bold. Even the destroyers are a chore to take out when they boost the sheilds 7 (average) and have a sheild score of 27. The cruisers? Once my BCH had it's sheilds boosted to 42...it felt quite safe.



I dunno how poor my opponent played but even he said that he engaged me closely far too quickly. He should've been more patient and veered off for another pass later. Instead he tried to make my range poor...the range was just inside and allowed me to take out the two d6's. At that point in the battle I felt quite on top of things.
 
Really interesting report. It does appear to show that Gorn ships, no matter what we all appear to think about them, are in no way underpowered or 'weak', just that tactics win out - as they should in any reasonable game. I'm going to have a long think about the ships, though to be fair there's little chance of me taking the 'R' armed CM in a SFB/FC game, it's a 'no brainer' in ActA (going to have to rethink my fleet choice system :wink: :wink: )

Question - as you seem to be the one testing out the Gorn, whats your thoughts on the HDD an CL (our heaviest non-lumbering ships). Quite light the CL, but have always had a weak spot for the HDD.
 
Keeper Nilbog said:
Really interesting report. It does appear to show that Gorn ships, no matter what we all appear to think about them, are in no way underpowered or 'weak', just that tactics win out - as they should in any reasonable game. I'm going to have a long think about the ships, though to be fair there's little chance of me taking the 'R' armed CM in a SFB/FC game, it's a 'no brainer' in ActA (going to have to rethink my fleet choice system :wink: :wink: )

Question - as you seem to be the one testing out the Gorn, whats your thoughts on the HDD an CL (our heaviest non-lumbering ships). Quite light the CL, but have always had a weak spot for the HDD.

I really like the HDD as it's reallly tough for a destroyer hull/price. It commands respect mounting that 'S' and is the better "destroyer" for phaser coverage. Between it's boosted weaponry and extra hit points...it's a winner. However, I tend to go with the cheaper BDD instead because it's actually "Agile" and that really goes a long way in this fleet of "lumberers" It's still got strong sheilds at a good threshold of '20' as well. When you're wanting to think of Gorn ships being "tough"...the BDD is what I think of.

The CL would be a great ship at the price if it wanst for the horrible sheilds it has. At 18 they just arent sturdy enough for my taste. With poor "fleet" maneuverability, this just wont do. I like to have the option of having tough sheilds and having them heavily reinforced for when I "lose" initiative (don't you have to actually "have" something in order to "lose" it?...as the saying goes) and am not sure which way to go...especially since Gorn ships tend to be sort of pricey and we're likely to have a ship less than our opponent.

The CL has good firepower...but the sheilds on the thing just turn me off so badly I don't give it a second look.

For maneuverability....the BDD is where it's at. Good price, agile, 3 torps, and stout sheilds.

Eventually, I'll probably use all the ships so I have a good opinion of them, but for now the only ones really in my stable are the BDD, sometimes the HDD, the CM varient, and the BCH....that's it. I'm wanting to figure out a fleet to support the BCF's though after running them in packs...I love the idea of pouncing on someone and unloading llike 6 S-Torps at close range! It's be my "Jurassic Park" fleet...3 Velociraptors! :lol:
 
"Task force Jurassic"-990pt fleet

Velociraptor class Fast Battlecruiser X 3
Ceratosaurus class Battle Destroyer X 3


"Gorn fleets are so slow and unmaneuverable...they suck!"

Right...keep telling yourself that, whatever helps you sleep at night! :mrgreen:
 
logical_proof said:
If only all opponents would so obligingly get to within 12" range without you even having to try...

Just move something with 20" is fine, 12" move plus 8" plasma death zone. Or 22" for the BCFs. Or 24" with an all power to engines move :twisted:

Keep Gorn ships central to the map and its hard for your enemies to be out of range of a charge, just make sure you kill them on the charge though as it takes forever to turn round :lol:
 
As have a Gorn fleet on order, looks like the CM,BDD's and BC/BCF/BCH will be first to the paint table. Agree about the comment re CL and shields (my book is with a friend at present), but as i remember it the only ships of that class with 18 shield are Klingon - so not really 18.

Might need to buy another CM.
 
deadshane said:
"Task force Jurassic"-990pt fleet

Velociraptor class Fast Battlecruiser X 3
Ceratosaurus class Battle Destroyer X 3


"Gorn fleets are so slow and unmaneuverable...they suck!"

Right...keep telling yourself that, whatever helps you sleep at night! :mrgreen:

That looks like an unpleasant force. One thing that concerns me though, is that those Fast Battlecruisers are still Lumbering. It seems to me that while the first pass and plasma dump will be bad news to someone on the receiving end, that lining up a second pass after reloading might be problematic due to those BCF's poor turn capability.

It'd be very interesting if someone had a chance to play that force and let us know how it actually works out. I don't have the capability at this point (minis not done, no opponents lined up yet).
 
8 turns. Average scenario length.
............................................
8 turns. Number of turns it takes a lumbering ship to make a 360 degree turn.


The regular 1 pivot per movement turn is bad enough for lumbering. IMHO it's far too strict to keep ships from using gravity wells (good tactical maneuvering) or high energy turns. Gorn ships are difficult to maneuver...yes...but in regular SFB universe at least Gorn can actually maneuver their ships. Once something get's out of the frontal arc of fire....it will never be there again in ACTA: Starfleet. Not so with the other versions of the universe.

Lumbering is a pretty poorly written rule.
 
deadshane said:
8 turns. Average scenario length.
............................................
8 turns. Number of turns it takes a lumbering ship to make a 360 degree turn.


The regular 1 pivot per movement turn is bad enough for lumbering. IMHO it's far too strict to keep ships from using gravity wells (good tactical maneuvering) or high energy turns. Gorn ships are difficult to maneuver...yes...but in regular SFB universe at least Gorn can actually maneuver their ships. Once something get's out of the frontal arc of fire....it will never be there again in ACTA: Starfleet. Not so with the other versions of the universe.

Lumbering is a pretty poorly written rule.

I have to wonder how many times the Gorn will have to make a 360 degree turn. Maybe 180, with another 45 degree to get targets in arc? I could easily see needing to make at least a 180 degree swing around to re-engage targets, but a 360?
 
billclo said:
deadshane said:
8 turns. Average scenario length.
............................................
8 turns. Number of turns it takes a lumbering ship to make a 360 degree turn.


The regular 1 pivot per movement turn is bad enough for lumbering. IMHO it's far too strict to keep ships from using gravity wells (good tactical maneuvering) or high energy turns. Gorn ships are difficult to maneuver...yes...but in regular SFB universe at least Gorn can actually maneuver their ships. Once something get's out of the frontal arc of fire....it will never be there again in ACTA: Starfleet. Not so with the other versions of the universe.

Lumbering is a pretty poorly written rule.

I have to wonder how many times the Gorn will have to make a 360 degree turn. Maybe 180, with another 45 degree to get targets in arc? I could easily see needing to make at least a 180 degree swing around to re-engage targets, but a 360?

It's not so much "when" you'll need to as much as it's other races being able to make 360 degrees worth of turns in as short as a single turn. Indeed, the average ship is able to do 360 degrees worth of turns in half the amount of time. The availiability of high energy turns make lumbering ships RIDICULOUSLY easy to avoid in many cases.
 
yes you wont get the primo bore shot with a gorn ship very often but most can fire plasma's into either port or starboard arcs. which makes running around them still very painfull. just keep youre few agile ships on the flanks of the bigger slower cruisers and this should help.
 
Man the Gorn seem like a very tricky force to handle. Lumbering is also putting me off. Seems like a very large handicap for such a small tradeoff of plasma dmg. But at the same time.. I love the ship designs, and I love the concept of the Gorn Empire. I .. I just gotta play em!
 
deadshane said:
It's not so much "when" you'll need to as much as it's other races being able to make 360 degrees worth of turns in as short as a single turn. Indeed, the average ship is able to do 360 degrees worth of turns in half the amount of time. The availiability of high energy turns make lumbering ships RIDICULOUSLY easy to avoid in many cases.

True enough, but the entire arguement is based on the fixation of single ships and their operation as individuals. In ACTA:SF you are not playing single ships like SFB/FC. In ACTA:SF it is about maneuvering squadorns and fleets. That Klingon D7 may be able to easily stay out of the boresight of a single lumbering Gorn, but it becomes much harder to stay out of the boresight of 12 Gorn's in a tight supporting formation.

Rather than thinking about one D7 flying circles around one lumbering Gorn, instead think of a pack of Klingons circling a tight formation of Gorns like wolves around a herd of Buffalo.

To quote scoutdad

and yes, ACTA is definitely a fleet game.
As I stated during playtesting:
We tried 1 on 1 games, and it came down to whoever won initiative usually won the game.
We tried 3 on 3 games. With smaller ships - it works, but if the ship mix is off the game breaks down.
We tried 5 on 5 and 6 on 6 games. Those almost always went well.
We tried 12 on 12 and larger games and never had a problem... even with lumbering units.

Just from the feel of my one actual game I can still tell right off that if you are playing with less than 6 ships on a side, you aren't actually playing ACTA:SF as intended. Or at least in my opinion you aren't.... :wink:
 
That's definatly how my fleet felt while watching the d-6's deftly maneuver however they wanted. I was lucky that my opponent misjudged distances. I was also lucky to notice and be able to line up on him. That initiat plasma shot from the cruisers was literally like only a quarter inch inside one foot. any more distance and the shot would've been a useless gesture, especially as I was firing into forward sheilds.


Game size is something I've been thinking about myself. It seems to me that a 1000 pt game is a nice tight game. I'm wondering if it's going to be the "norm". the tournament is 1000 pts and national tournaments have a way of making some point cost an "official game" cost for pickup games at gamestores or at home.

I remember back in the day here in the U.S. when GW 40k tournaments were 1500 pts, and that was what you played at home and in stores. Then it got lifted for about a year to 1750...and the store games went up as well. Then for the longest time the official tournament size of games was another odd number....1850. Naturallly, everyone at home was playing 1850 pt games....as odd a number to fixate on as that one is. Nowadays, with the local indie tournaments picking up, everyone here in the U.S. plays 2000 pt battles of Warhammer 40k. Why? Obviously because it's the new tournament standard.

The tournament for ACTA:Starfleet is 1000pts. That fact will surely influence what point level games are played.

I'm going to get lots of gaming in with this system, I'm pretty much a Warhammer 40k player but the only game to unseat that title for any amount of time was Battlefleet Gothic. I LOVE starship combat, it's my favorite type of wargame. I'm quickly falling in love with this system and planning on eventuallly having a fleet of every race....I'm that obsessive with my wargaming.

Once I find out what a good point total is that can be played in under 2 hours, that's probably what I'm going to be using as a total. I'm thinking about introducing this game at NOVA in august of 2013. NOVA is a wargames tournament that is primarily 40k but also this past year featured FOW and Warmachine tournaments as well. Starship Combat might be welcome, and since Battlefleet gothic is pretty much dead I think that this system is a really good one and the fluff behind it is quite familiar to nerds allowing an easy pickup. I've been going to these national tournaments for years and nothing is better at drumming up mass interest for a new game than featuring it at a tournament like this. I hope that Mongoose is on point with the models and getting all the stuff out to the states. That's pretty much all I'm waiting to see before I pitch another smallish tournament to the organiser at the NOVA wargames tournament....that, and what the "TRUE" point levels for competetive gaming is going to be.
 
I reckon 1000 points will be the minimum level for a good game, from what I have read. You can easily buy 5 decent ships in 1000 points, more if you go smaller than cruiser-sized. 5 ships vs 5 ships seems to be about the minimum for a fun game, and appears to be definitely playable in a reasonable amount of time (much less than 2 hours).
 
actualy i think you could get away with 500-600 points and still have 5 ships each and the game might be quicker and a good game (boarder forces meeting or scout in force)
 
We have had games with just two ships per side that were exciting, fun-filled and balanced.

Incidentally, the 1,000 point limit for the tournament is _only_ in place to allow for four games in one day.
 
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