Good Sportsmanship in Tourneys

[Clanger]

On the way home from the Tourney this weekend. We briefly mentioned Sportsmanship points.

Should they be shown with the Game scores?

I think the scores should be shown. If Player A keeps getting 20's for Sportmanship and Player B get regularly 12's. It should make them think "How can I improve my Game". Improving your Game does not mean taking a killer combo but how you approach the Game and your Fellow Players.

In Mongoose Tourneys this represents a 5th of your final score. In others Tourneys the scale is different but is no less still important.


Da Boss joked I should write a "Clangers Guide to Sportsmanship" as I tend to score very highly in that regard at Tourneys. So here is a little Thread for what people think is Good Sportsmanship in a Tourney.

Getting that top score in no paricular order (in my opinion)

1) Simple politeness. A handshake and "Good Luck" is in order. Treat your Opponent as a person and just not someone to beat.

2) No cheating. Goes without saying.

3) If your opponent has a mind block at the time. And forgets something or does something wrong. Reminding them politely is in order.

4) Learning something new in the game. I like games that make you think.

5) Offer some advice to your opponent if they are new to the game and give them the options. Even if sometimes this is done during, mid or even after the game.

6) We all get irritated when the dice go against us. As long as you do not do a table flip or knock the opponent out. Muttering at your bad luck and calling your opponent a "Jammy Bugger" or words to that effect is okay as long as it is in jest and not meant maliciously.

7) The opponent is fun to play against (even if loosing badly). You both have a good laugh playing the game.

8) Turn up at the table not expecting to win. Just to have fun. Play the game and not play the Tourney.

In my years of doing ACTA Tourneys. I have only experienced 1 poor player. The opponents I have faced have been great opponents and we always seem to enjoy our games. All bar 1 opponent I have faced I will gladly face the same people again without qualms and know I would get a fun great game.

What do the other members think?

 

[deadshane]

Sportsmanship scores in tournaments accomplish very little IMHO.

...except for a chance for the REAL poor sports to chipmunk and torpedo scores of people that beat them.

Sportsmanship scores are essentially abolished here in the U.S. tournament scene. No GW tournaments that are Indy run utilise them any longer. There's a very good reason for that.

Grown ups should be able to play nice to begin with.

 

[Clanger]

I have seen some of these "Grown Ups" act like in little spoiled kids in Tourneys. Less so in CTA Tourneys though.

Winning Tourney should not just be about who has that killer combo. It should be about being a Good Player as well and should be rewarded. Being a Min/Maxer should not be the be all and end all. Not having a Sportsmanship award just promotes Min/Maxing in my opinion.

Though in CTA Tourneys I have yet to meet a person who "torpedos" a score because he / she lost. We tend be be a friendly bunch and reward good play win or lose the game. Also it has help some improve how they approach the game as well.

 

[LimeyDragon]

Sportsmanship scores in tournaments accomplish very little IMHO.

...except for a chance for the REAL poor sports to chipmunk and torpedo scores of people that beat them.

Sportsmanship scores are essentially abolished here in the U.S. tournament scene. No GW tournaments that are Indy run utilise them any longer. There's a very good reason for that.

Grown ups should be able to play nice to begin with.

G.W. 40k is the one game system that does need sportsmanship the most.. I have never met a more rude bunch of players. Conversely the G.W. Fantasy players are the opposite. No keep in mind my experience is only from tournaments held in Texas, Kansas, and Oklahoma. Things in other states may be completely different.

 

[Apep]

Having a flashback to the mid 90’s and my Leman Russ flying through the air (Survived Eldar, Ork, Chaos – but not a temper tantrum) – Was not even playing at the time as well… :lol:

Gamesmanship is about treating other players the way you would wish to be treated.

 

[McKinstry]

I have seen some of these "Grown Ups" act like in little spoiled kids in Tourneys. Less so in CTA Tourneys though.

Winning Tourney should not just be about who has that killer combo. It should be about being a Good Player as well and should be rewarded. Being a Min/Maxer should not be the be all and end all. Not having a Sportsmanship award just promotes Min/Maxing in my opinion.

Though in CTA Tourneys I have yet to meet a person who "torpedos" a score because he / she lost. We tend be be a friendly bunch and reward good play win or lose the game. Also it has help some improve how they approach the game as well.

I've run probably 10+ BFG tournaments and got good use out of the sportsmanship scores in that it is a check on min/maxing munchkinism and speaking as a judge, if I observed someone having the poor sportsmanship to consistently slag off opponents, the consequences would be fatal to their aspirations. That said, I rarely if ever observed genuinely bad behavior in that most spaceship or naval gamers just want to shoot a lot and blow things up with the winning/losing bit a very secondary goal. 8)

Now the 40K tourneys my kids used to play in - a whole different story :evil:

 

[Halaxi]

Having played against my share of Good Sportspeople and total asshats, I can definatly say that there should be recognition for players who actually make the playing of the game fun and enjoyable.

Whilst tournaments are, in the main, about trying to win, it should not be forgotten that it is just a game.

To refer to an earlier comment that adults should be able to play nice - well, this is true. But I am sure we have all experienced occasions where someone opts to spit their dummy out.

Having a Sportsmanship score in tournaments allows recognition of good play, as well as encouraging it (want more points? play nice).

Hal.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Should they be shown with the Game scores?

Ah, the eternal question!

I think, overall, it keeps people 'honest.'

 

[katadder]

not really, they are used to torpedo tourneys. for example I didnt get max sportsmanship in the last tourney, off some people I did, others I didnt yet was the same throughout and used pretty much all of clangers "tips".
having a sportsmanship trophy is fine but it shouldnt be in the main scores as its more to do with how people feel about you afterwards. me i always award max normally but may have to change that as people are "metagaming" it IMO.

 

[tneva82]

not really, they are used to torpedo tourneys. for example I didnt get max sportsmanship in the last tourney, off some people I did, others I didnt yet was the same throughout and used pretty much all of clangers "tips".
having a sportsmanship trophy is fine but it shouldnt be in the main scores as its more to do with how people feel about you afterwards. me i always award max normally but may have to change that as people are "metagaming" it IMO.

Another issue with them is the "I give you max and you give me max" that was very common in Finland when sportmanship scores were handed out.

Don't think they are that common anymore. They simply don't help that much, leads to potential to torpedo others to enhance your own position or lead to everybody giving each other max to get themselves max.

They are also highly subjective and leads to unanswerable questions like should opponent be penalized here by having highly effective min-maxed fleet and utilizing it's power to full by annihilating you? Some people think min-maxing is worth docking points, others see it as part of the game.

For my money it's way too subjective and way too abusable. And if you have players who don't abuse it you don't need the points in a first place. Sportmanship scores gives another tool for poor sportmanship for the guys you are trying to aim it against...

 

[Trenchbucket]

I think people can abuse the sportmanship system, but it is a goodfaith scoring system. I gave everyone top scores saturday, though it looks like the favour was not returned, but hey i had fun and thats what counts

 

[deadshane]

G.W. 40k is the one game system that does need sportsmanship the most.. I have never met a more rude bunch of players.

Nice blanket statement. A baseless assessment and an insult leveled to an entire genre of gaming's participants. I'll admit that I have nothing at all to say to this. :roll:

............................................

Allow me to clarify.

Sportsmanship is fine in a tournament. A best Sportsmanship award is great...so long as the scoring process has no effect on the standing's of the regular tournament.

The problem lies with those players who treat sportsmanship as a form of "comp" scoring, those who are offended at getting beaten, and those who will use sportsmanship scores in ways that unfairly hinder their opponent. Utilise sportsmanship in ways that effect final standings and you WILL see this happen....count on it. If you doubt this you're simply naive, willfully blind to it, or you haven't experienced real tournament play.

We've all seen these "tactics" used in tournaments where sportsmanship is concerned. If it didnt happen at the latest tourney, well, lucky you. However, the more tournaments there are and the larger/more popular this hobby gets (as I'm sure we're all hoping that ACTA:Star Fleet will be getting huge!) the more and more you WILL see it.

In a tournament, I don't think it's appropriate for your opponent, one you are in competition with, to have input on your final standings. They are not unbiased toward your standings if they're in competition with you.

Another problem with Sportsmanship scoring is that it's easily manipulated. Offering your opponent a beer or shot of whiskey during the game, I've seen this sort of behavior as well.

U.S. indy wargaming tournaments are getting away from sportsmanship scoring...at least getting away from it having anything to do with the final standings. Like I said...there is a reason.

You also dont see sportsmanship scoring in true sports...I wonder why.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I think people can abuse the sportmanship system, but it is a goodfaith scoring system. I gave everyone top scores saturday, though it looks like the favour was not returned, but hey i had fun and thats what counts

Although I would argue that giving everyone the top score is a bad thing. To my understanding, the top score should be for exceptionally good sportsmanship, and to give it to everyone dilutes the meaning of that "Great".
On example of a Great for me was when playing against Paul - he was actively teaching me tricks on how to fight back against him even early on in the game when they could still affect the outcome.

I guess this shows the problem with sportsmanship scoring though - even when everyone is being honest, it's highly subjective. I love the idea in principle, but execution will always be difficult.

 

[tneva82]

Although I would argue that giving everyone the top score is a bad thing. To my understanding, the top score should be for exceptionally good sportsmanship, and to give it to everyone dilutes the meaning of that "Great".

But when those scores reflect on final position that's what will happen. People don't want to risk on having less than possible points themselves so they go for "I give you max, you give me max" line.

 

[LimeyDragon]

G.W. 40k is the one game system that does need sportsmanship the most.. I have never met a more rude bunch of players.

Sportsmanship is fine in a tournament. A best Sportsmanship award is great...so long as the scoring process has no effect on the standing's of the regular tournament.

Don't get me wrong, plenty of LGS in the area don't use sportsmanship. And I do like the idea that sportsmanship is used for breaking ties for pairings and or standings..

 

[H]

sportsmanship... banning clangers dice ;-)

 

[Greg Smith]

sportsmanship... banning clangers dice ;-)

Amen! :twisted:

 

[Trenchbucket]

Subject: Good Sportsmanship in Tourneys


tneva82 wrote:
nekomata fuyu wrote:
Although I would argue that giving everyone the top score is a bad thing. To my understanding, the top score should be for exceptionally good sportsmanship, and to give it to everyone dilutes the meaning of that "Great".


But when those scores reflect on final position that's what will happen. People don't want to risk on having less than possible points themselves so they go for "I give you max, you give me max" line.

To be honest i dont think i discussed this once with my opponent, i just found everyone agreeable and fun to play againt, even if every game was nail biting). This again relects personal view when you can only score people bad,good or great. I thought all were great and good sportsmen so i gave them so. Though i did play 3 out of 4 people who ended up on the top of the ranking table. From the 40k tourneys i have attended its normally the nearer the top of the table you go the uglier the players are on the inside (including two eldar players in a doubles tournement taking 17 minutes to move the 2 units they had left to time bar us from getting a draw).

Bottomline is GW is mainstream while this is a cult game, Mainstream will always attract the worst players while cult gamers generally attract the spirit of the game players. Though this is not always the case.

 

[Trenchbucket]

Also i need to learn to hit reply and not PM

 

[katadder]

privateer press dont do sportsmanship in tourneys, they assume everyone will be good sports which is what you should do in a game. if people are being dicks then the TO gets to sort them out instead.