Gold Pieces for Credits
- Thread starter Tom Kalbfus
- Start date
Tom Kalbfus said:
I just noticed that math is wrong. 19,320 kilograms is 19.32 metric tons. Multiplying that by the 14.114 cubic meters is 272.68 metric tons per displacement ton, not 3849 metric tons. That would make the gold 275 credits per metric ton, not 19.48.
That would make a metric ton of gold 10,000,000 credits. A full displacement ton 140,000,000 credits. That is probably a little too much. For what it is worth, Traveller 20 put a displacement ton of gold at 8,000,000 credits.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Imagine if you were a super-villain who had taken control of all the world's gold, and had decided to melt it down to make a cube. How long would the sides be? Hundreds of metres, thousands even?
Actually, it's unlikely to be anything like that size.
Warren Buffett, one of the world's richest investors, says the total amount of gold in the world - the gold above ground, that is - could fit into a cube with sides of just 20m (67ft).
But is that all there is? And if so, how do we know?
A figure that is widely used by investors comes from Thomson Reuters GFMS, which produces an annual gold survey.
Their latest figure for all the gold in the world is 171,300 tonnes - which is almost exactly the same as the amount in our super-villain's imaginary cube.
A cube made of 171,300 tonnes would be about 20.7m (68ft) on each side. Or to put it another way, it would reach to 9.8m above ground level if exactly covering Wimbledon Centre Court.
But not everyone agrees with the GFMS figures.
Estimates range from 155,244 tonnes, marginally less than the GFMS figure, to about 16 times that amount - 2.5 million tonnes.
That bigger figure would make a cube of sides 50m (166ft) long, or a column of gold towering 143m above Wimbledon centre court.
So why are the figures so different?
Part of the reason is that gold has been mined for a very long time - more than 6,000 years, according to gold historian Timothy Green.
All the gold that has been mined throughout history is still in existence
James Turk, Gold Money
The first gold coins were minted in about 550 BC under King Croesus of Lydia - a province in modern-day Turkey - and quickly became accepted payment for merchants and mercenary soldiers around the Mediterranean.
Up until 1492, the year Columbus sailed to America, GFMS estimates that 12,780 tonnes had been extracted.
But one investor who looked at the research done in this area, James Turk, the founder of Gold Money, discovered what he regarded as a series of over-estimates.
He believes that the primitive mining techniques used up to the Middle Ages mean that this figure is much too high, and that a more realistic total is just 297 tonnes.
His figure for the overall amount of gold in the world is 155,244 tonnes - 16,056 tonnes, or 10% less, than the assessment by Thompson Reuters GFMS. A relatively small disparity, perhaps, but one that at today's prices comes to more than $950bn.
His conclusions are accepted by some investors but such is the feeling between rival analysts that one competitor described Turk's figures as an alternative to the GFMS's "in the same way that Jedi is an alternative to Christianity".
But there are others who think both sets of figures are too low.
"In Tutankhamen's tomb alone they found that his coffin was made from 1.5 tonnes of gold, so imagine the gold that was found in the other tombs that were ransacked before records were taken of them," says Jan Skoyles of gold investment firm The Real Asset Company.
While James Turk makes only minor adjustments to the GFMS figure for the amount of gold mined after 1492, Skoyles points out that even today China is "not particularly open" about how much gold it is mining.
And in some countries, such as Colombia, "there's a lot of illegal mining going on", she says.
She doesn't have an exact figure to offer, but one organisation that has tried to do some maths is the Gold Standard Institute.
There is much gold still in the ground, like here in Democratic Republic of Congo
Its experts believe that if we emptied our bank vaults and jewellery boxes, we'd find no less than 2.5 million tonnes of gold - though they admit that the evidence is somewhat sparse and the figure is a bit speculative.
More or Less: Behind the stats
Listen to More or Less on BBC Radio 4 and the World Service, or download the free podcast
Download the More or Less podcast
More stories from More or Less
So who's right?
Well, we don't know.
In the end, all these numbers are made up of estimates added to estimates added to yet more estimates. Maybe they're all way off.
The good news is that we are not likely to run out of gold any time soon. The US Geological Survey estimates there are 52,000 tonnes of minable gold still in the ground and more is likely to be discovered.
The bad news is that the way we use gold is starting to change.
Up to now it has never gone away. It has always been recycled.
"All the gold that has been mined throughout history is still in existence in the above-ground stock. That means that if you have a gold watch, some of the gold in that watch could have been mined by the Romans 2,000 years ago," says James Turk.
The way gold is being used in the technology industry, however, is different.
The British Geological Survey states that about 12% of current world gold production finds its way to this sector, where it is often used in such small quantities, in each individual product, that it may no longer be economical to recycle it.
In short, gold may be being "consumed" for the first time.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21969100
Actually, it's unlikely to be anything like that size.
Warren Buffett, one of the world's richest investors, says the total amount of gold in the world - the gold above ground, that is - could fit into a cube with sides of just 20m (67ft).
But is that all there is? And if so, how do we know?
A figure that is widely used by investors comes from Thomson Reuters GFMS, which produces an annual gold survey.
Their latest figure for all the gold in the world is 171,300 tonnes - which is almost exactly the same as the amount in our super-villain's imaginary cube.
A cube made of 171,300 tonnes would be about 20.7m (68ft) on each side. Or to put it another way, it would reach to 9.8m above ground level if exactly covering Wimbledon Centre Court.
But not everyone agrees with the GFMS figures.
Estimates range from 155,244 tonnes, marginally less than the GFMS figure, to about 16 times that amount - 2.5 million tonnes.
That bigger figure would make a cube of sides 50m (166ft) long, or a column of gold towering 143m above Wimbledon centre court.
So why are the figures so different?
Part of the reason is that gold has been mined for a very long time - more than 6,000 years, according to gold historian Timothy Green.
All the gold that has been mined throughout history is still in existence
James Turk, Gold Money
The first gold coins were minted in about 550 BC under King Croesus of Lydia - a province in modern-day Turkey - and quickly became accepted payment for merchants and mercenary soldiers around the Mediterranean.
Up until 1492, the year Columbus sailed to America, GFMS estimates that 12,780 tonnes had been extracted.
But one investor who looked at the research done in this area, James Turk, the founder of Gold Money, discovered what he regarded as a series of over-estimates.
He believes that the primitive mining techniques used up to the Middle Ages mean that this figure is much too high, and that a more realistic total is just 297 tonnes.
His figure for the overall amount of gold in the world is 155,244 tonnes - 16,056 tonnes, or 10% less, than the assessment by Thompson Reuters GFMS. A relatively small disparity, perhaps, but one that at today's prices comes to more than $950bn.
His conclusions are accepted by some investors but such is the feeling between rival analysts that one competitor described Turk's figures as an alternative to the GFMS's "in the same way that Jedi is an alternative to Christianity".
But there are others who think both sets of figures are too low.
"In Tutankhamen's tomb alone they found that his coffin was made from 1.5 tonnes of gold, so imagine the gold that was found in the other tombs that were ransacked before records were taken of them," says Jan Skoyles of gold investment firm The Real Asset Company.
While James Turk makes only minor adjustments to the GFMS figure for the amount of gold mined after 1492, Skoyles points out that even today China is "not particularly open" about how much gold it is mining.
And in some countries, such as Colombia, "there's a lot of illegal mining going on", she says.
She doesn't have an exact figure to offer, but one organisation that has tried to do some maths is the Gold Standard Institute.
There is much gold still in the ground, like here in Democratic Republic of Congo
Its experts believe that if we emptied our bank vaults and jewellery boxes, we'd find no less than 2.5 million tonnes of gold - though they admit that the evidence is somewhat sparse and the figure is a bit speculative.
More or Less: Behind the stats
Listen to More or Less on BBC Radio 4 and the World Service, or download the free podcast
Download the More or Less podcast
More stories from More or Less
So who's right?
Well, we don't know.
In the end, all these numbers are made up of estimates added to estimates added to yet more estimates. Maybe they're all way off.
The good news is that we are not likely to run out of gold any time soon. The US Geological Survey estimates there are 52,000 tonnes of minable gold still in the ground and more is likely to be discovered.
The bad news is that the way we use gold is starting to change.
Up to now it has never gone away. It has always been recycled.
"All the gold that has been mined throughout history is still in existence in the above-ground stock. That means that if you have a gold watch, some of the gold in that watch could have been mined by the Romans 2,000 years ago," says James Turk.
The way gold is being used in the technology industry, however, is different.
The British Geological Survey states that about 12% of current world gold production finds its way to this sector, where it is often used in such small quantities, in each individual product, that it may no longer be economical to recycle it.
In short, gold may be being "consumed" for the first time.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21969100
Just a little bit of real world consideration here. When shipping heavy objects such as gold they book cargo at the maximum shipping weight, i.e. 21,600kgs of gold in a secure 20 foot container for a maximum gross 24000 kgs is 1700 gold bars, or approx. 1120 liters in volume.
So from those numbers 5400kgs of gold requires at least one displacement ton of cargo space.
So from those numbers 5400kgs of gold requires at least one displacement ton of cargo space.
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
"You REALLY expected Marc to list EVERY current technological process from the real world in the rules?"
I would expect someone in the last 40 years of the game to think transmutation of the elements at low tech levels extremely important enough to mention it somewhere. That's as big technological event at least on the order of the maneuver or jump drive compared to something as the VERY basic chemistry of salt. There should be NO belter economy at all if all elements can be so easily and cheaply converted. There is no mention because even Grandfather can't do it in the standard game. In other peoples campaign, alchemy and jump and maneuver flying carpets with little energy or displacement are no problem.
I would expect someone in the last 40 years of the game to think transmutation of the elements at low tech levels extremely important enough to mention it somewhere. That's as big technological event at least on the order of the maneuver or jump drive compared to something as the VERY basic chemistry of salt. There should be NO belter economy at all if all elements can be so easily and cheaply converted. There is no mention because even Grandfather can't do it in the standard game. In other peoples campaign, alchemy and jump and maneuver flying carpets with little energy or displacement are no problem.
tolcreator
Mongoose
Infojunky said:
This is my take on it. 1 Dton of gold (i.e. of cargo) cannot literally be a big cube of solid gold with a volume of 1dton. Such a thing would probably break the cargo handling robot/forklift. It's presumably a much smaller amount of gold in bars, in a packaging pallet or what have you.
Well why not take it all out of the packaging and just stack it? You can fit more in the cargo bay that way! Or at least stuff other than your gold. Well that much mass might damage the cargo bay floor, hence the "standard pallets" that it comes in.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Even if gold isn't used as currency or store of value, it would still have applications in jewellery and industry.
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
Okay, lets try Cr10,000,000 per metric ton of gold, that's Cr10,000 per kilogram, each gold coin the barbarian therefore worth Cr500, The barbarian has 300 gold coins, (each one has 50 grams of gold) thus he has Cr30,000 worth of gold pieces. Now in my smoke ring campaign the highest native tech level is 5, there is lots of gold in the asteroids being mined, there the exchange rate is 1 gp for Cr1. The pirates sell high tech items at their cost in Credits in gold pieces instead. If something is worth Cr500 they sell it for 500 gp, the pirates then take their gold back to a civilized system and collect Cr500 for every gold piece they sell, they are the only ones who have starships for getting to and from the smoke ring, and they will not sell starships! So its a lucrative business for them! Until the PCs discover their secret, hence the main focus of the adventure, the pirates will try to either confiscate their starship and maroon the PCs in the Smoke Ring or they'll try to destroy it, rather that have them spread the word about their gold mining operation and bring competition!F33D said:
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
That all depends, primitive societies aren't as rare in the OTU as in our World, and mos primitive societies in our world have some contact with the modern world. Most of our world has already been explored, in the OTU, newly discovered worlds with people on them are a dime a dozen. A barbarian hitching a ride on a merchant ship is not an uncommon sight. That barbarians at the currency exchange counter is probably not the first barbarian the exchange clerk has met. All sort of weird things come into the starport all the time. To the barbarian they may be new but not to the clerk at the currency exchange counter.
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
Looking over Scoundrel for some detail for a barbarian, they have no money benefit and would need either the entry 11 on the Mishap table or the Travel entry on the Life Event table to be off world. That means a barbarian character off on space adventures is a lot more worldly than their original world. To have a bag of gold or other possession means they have begun adventuring with other off worlders and acquired these items as part of adventuring. Using the scenario Tom presented, I doubt the barbarian is wandering around in its original clothes and trinkets though could still have a few treasured items. If such a person can walk off a ship and move around comfortably to perform the transaction, that person is much more savvy of the bigger universe or has off world friends counseling. If the barbarian does go to a currency exchange then it knew it wanted a credit equivalent for the gold value otherwise it would go to a coin dealer or some other similar merchant for the art or rarity value if there is any. Remember that money from another culture isn't automatically of higher value just because it's foreign.
Now, if the barbarian was carrying a bag of very old Coynes....
Now, if the barbarian was carrying a bag of very old Coynes....
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
Check Scoundrel, "Barbarians may not roll for cash benefits." They do not start with currency, period.
I read too fast, events 25, 43 and 61 can also get you off world but there are still no events or benefits for local native gold at the beginning of adventuring. Even the ship shares isn't actual currency to start though getting off world could mean selling them as well as finding laser rifles and/or vacc suits.
I read too fast, events 25, 43 and 61 can also get you off world but there are still no events or benefits for local native gold at the beginning of adventuring. Even the ship shares isn't actual currency to start though getting off world could mean selling them as well as finding laser rifles and/or vacc suits.
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
Reynard said:
Cash meaning the Traveller definition of cash, a barbarian could however have his own native currency or have acquired the coins on adventures on his home planet before encountering spacefaring characters. Another way for a barbarian to get off his home planet is to hire on as part of a ship's crew. An example of a typical job for a barbarian would be as a waiter in a ship's dinning facility. A barbarian could also be the ship's cook. Barbarians could sign on as stewards or entertainers. Ships hire barbarians for the same reason cruise ships hire people from third world countries, because they work cheap. they do low skilled menial labor things that don't require a lot of training.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
F33D said:
I guess, technically speaking, Treecats are barbarians.
Ewan said:
In Hard Times it makes sense that Gold is worth more; it represents the Imperium in Civil War. The Imperial Credit is a floating currency much like our modern ones. It's value derives from people's confidence in the Imperium. The Credit has massively dropped in value as people no longer have confidence in it because of the ongoing civil war.
So people have sought out other things to place their trust in. It'd appear in HT they've fallen back to the old standbys of precious metals.
tolcreator said:
That's exactly what it is. The price quoted is for a (theoretical) big cube of solid gold probably along the lines of 99.999% pure gold. It's the commodity price. The lot you're carrying in a starship may be a lot less, in which case you'd adjust the price of the gold by how much you're actually carrying, but if you had a Dton of gold, that's how much it'd be worth. You'd buy it from the broker or seller in some percentage of a Dton, then you and the seller might negotiate on how much more you'd pay for packaging and other fees.
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
Ewan said:
In Hard Times it makes sense that Gold is worth more; it represents the Imperium in Civil War. The Imperial Credit is a floating currency much like our modern ones. It's value derives from people's confidence in the Imperium. The Credit has massively dropped in value as people no longer have confidence in it because of the ongoing civil war.
So people have sought out other things to place their trust in. It'd appear in HT they've fallen back to the old standbys of precious metals.[/quote]
That's in line with my pricing for gold since I use 50 gram gold pieces which would then be worth Cr500.
Copper Cr0.2 50 grams
Silver Cr16.7 50 grams
Gold Cr500 50 grams
I don't know what the credit was worth before, but Cr500 per 50 gram coin seems reasonable, and that is more than what the US dollar is worth today, so the basic ratio is 2500 cp = 30 sp = 1 gp = Cr500.
I'd adjust the size of the coins like this to make the math work:
1 Penny p with 25 grams of copper = Cr0.1 (40 weighs 1kg)
1 Copper Piece cp with 250 grams of copper = Cr1 (4 weighs 1 kg)
1 Silver Piece sp with 30 grams of silver = Cr10 (33.4 weighs 1 kg)
1 Gold Piece gp with 10 grams of gold = Cr100 (100 weighs 1 kg)
1 Platinum Piece pp with 50 grams of platinum = Cr1,000 (20 weighs 1 kg)
How does this sound?