GM Responsibility Toward the Conan RPG

[Clovenhoof]

General agreement, I think you have summed it up very well.
For example that's a very good point about female PCs. I also have a female player and she has a female PC (a pirate), and I'm confident she'll be able to ward off any "How about we go back to my temple" attempts.

There's just one point that can be argued: "epic". While personally I love epic campaigning, and you certainly CAN play an epic campaign in Conan, this is an aspect that is not necessary, even unusual in a Sword&Sorcery setting.

Maybe we should first define what "epic" in the fantasy connotation means:
It does not mean character advancement beyond 20th level. *g*
Rather, it describes one grand tale of world-moving struggle. Lord of the Rings springs to mind. A thousand pages of a single story. There is not much left out in between, the travels are described in great detail, and it is all about fighting the BBEG and his minions. Good versus Evil, and you know exactly who is on what side. The hero may start out small and weak but grows stronger, rarely experiencing any personal setbacks.

Conan stories, OTOH, are much more personal in scope. The stories are rarely connected, Conan ends up filthy rich in one story and is poor, stripped and tied thousands of miles away at the beginning of the next, is the classic example. The stories are essentially about _him_, not about saving the world. He kinda "saves" Aquilonia very late in his game, but it's a totally different outset than epic fantasy. There is no real Good vs Evil element, because there is no real dedicated force of Good. The PCs most likely aren't Good either, they are more concerned with getting their stomachs filled, and if they are lucky they can maintain their honour as they work towards that.

So, if you want to play Conan as an epic fantasy game, you'd have to introduce a really Big Bad Evil Guy and set him up with the will and the means to take on the world. His success should mean total destruction, not just a different account you're paying your taxes to. And then your players have to agree that their characters will want to fight him.

 

[Aholibamah]

I take your point--to clarify I meant epic more in the sense that the scope is sometimes big--for example there is the 'fall of the kingdom' theme that happens in several stories.

 

[Spectator]

In the interests of all things Conan, his greatest and most frequent opponents were bad guys, not bad monsters. Sorcerors, more often than demons were his nemesis.
I am prepping an adventure through the wilds of Kush, and I think my PC have enough to worry about with 70 Bamula Barbarians on their tail before they even reach a green-stone-city.
Imagine, the constant agony of being chased, have talking drums betray your approach to the river crossing, have an occasional carnivorous ape get pissed when you cross his territory (the nice part is he gets more pissed at the hounding Bamulas)
HAve the kushite Witch-finder Divining your location so you never are able to eve rest and regain substantial health or power points!
Or running into a bunch of Darfuri out on a food run (for you).
Not to mentionthe strain of exhaustion and heat prostration will lay you out in no time flat. It will take a 70 hp fighter to 20 Hp kitten very quickly.

just my 2 cents

Yeah Humans are pretty good opponents, supernatural is dandy, but even a giant snake need not appear to make things fun.

 

[Soulmage]

there is a responsibility to GM's to run the Conan RPG in the style of the REH Conan stories, emulating the distinct environment of action Howard provided.

:roll: This post is pretty ridiculous. . .

Responsible to whom?

REH? He was dead long before the invention of roleplaying games. I am certain he doesn't care.

The players? The players certainly aren't going to hold you accountable for differing from the Conan style if it means they have more fun by doing things differently.

Yourself? Well. . . I determine what my responsibilities to myself are. Its pretty neat how that works.

Whatever. . . that post is just laughable.


I do *agree* with your point that you can play adventures in a completely different world using the Conan mechanics. My response to that is, so what? Who cares? Should people who don't want to play in a close to Conan as possible setting be banned from using the Conan mechanics?


Personally, I'm going to be starting up a Conan campaign when 2E comes out. Its going to be pretty much an action-only game very much in the style of the Conan stories. . .

But your contention about people's "responsibility" was just ridiculous.

 

[Clovenhoof]

This calls up another thought in me. You know, I kind of understand what he's saying, maybe differently than what he tried to say, but for some cases there is a point indeed:

If the players know their Conan shit and they expect to play a Howardian campaign in a Howardian Hyboria, and they know their shit, than the GM should better give them Howard, OR warn them in advance if he intends to do some things differently.

This is not restricted to Conan but holds true to ANY setting. You either play a setting as it is presented or you don't.

For example -- and I name this particular example because I have experienced it myself, as a player -- imagine your game is set in a fantasy world where magicians cannot wear metal armour, not just because of encumbrance or traditions but because iron _destroys_ magic, and a magic user wearing iron over a length of time will lose his ability to tap magic permanently.
See it coming? Right, at some point, a mercenary girl (PC) who was clad in a full suit of chainmail, carrying a truckload of weapons on her back, starts to effing cast effing black magic spells and is the meanest ole sorceress you'd ever seen.
Stuff like that is an absolute no-go. It's not like simply changing a rule. Even if it WAS simply changing a rule, the players have a right to be informed about it beforehand ("Hell, why shouldn't my magician wear chainmail, too?"). But here it was not just a rule, it was a piece of elemental background that defined this setting: iron destroys magic. You can't just change stuff like that on a whim because you feel like it, not without at least informing, if not discussing it with the other players beforehand.

That particular GM was notorious to "sudden world warps" like that, for example when a people/race known for their hatred of slavery and take pains to hunt down slavers suddenly _adopt_ slavery themselves. Again, without any warning in advance.

It's sort of like this happened in the real world:
"The envoy of the People's Republic of America says--"
"Wait, don't you mean the United States of America?"
"No, it's a communist country."

 

[Strom]

This cracks me up.

there is a responsibility to GM's to run the Conan RPG in the style of the REH Conan stories, emulating the distinct environment of action Howard provided.

:roll: This post is pretty ridiculous. . .

Hit a soft spot in ya? Probably a high percentage chance...

Responsible to whom?

I love how you say the post is ridiculous then say ", I'm going to be starting up a Conan campaign when 2E comes out. Its going to be pretty much an action-only game very much in the style of the Conan stories. . ."

Bingo. Thanks for playing. I'm amazed how offended people are about my suggestion of responsibility toward the established Conan stories and yet everyone plays the game "very much in the style of the Conan stories"

You make my point for me. What's ridiculous is a campaign not in the style of the Conan stories - otherwise why play Conan? There is more to the game than the name or the physical map. This is a cerebral understanding of the roleplaying concept - not some rights violation issue, like you are presenting it as. When you can mentally grasp the larger picture, please let us know.

I think there is a responsibility to the GM to not let his/her players dictate the style/atmosphere/events etc. - it is up to the GM to make sure regardless of what the PC's do, that he or she maintains the uniqueness of the REH Conan stories and make no action/situation mundane. Otherwise you could just play Barbie & Ken in Hyboria.

 

[Aholibamah]

Ah, well, you used the "R" word and that is a trigger sometimes. It depends on one's point of view but for instance I took seriously Vincent Darlage's encouragement to make the most of Shadizar and to do it justice. That's why I'm sort of going on a pastiche binge and about to go out and get "Conan and the Spider God" as well, to get a good sense of all the stories that the writers of the Shadizar setting used for inspiration since I hadn't read most of them.

Personally I understand what you mean...but that's true of most really good games. For instance if you're playing 1920s era Call of Cthulhu then you have to understand that certain kinds of manners and elements of social status are going to be important to convey the era and also how the pcs are able to interact with others. There are some jobs for instance that female pcs will not be able to have unless they are in disguise. It is not politically correct but it is realistic given the setting.

 

[Crisippo]

I'm amazed how offended people are about my suggestion of responsibility toward the established Conan stories

This does not offended me

What offends me about the things that you're saying is that you ignore, in a condesending way, the fact that someone may perceive

the distinct environment of action Howard provided

different than you do.

I've read REH's work. I don't need you to tell me how i should understand his creation! It not so much the gaming police, but the mind police...

 

[Axerules]

I think there is a responsibility to the GM to not let his/her players dictate the style/atmosphere/events etc. - it is up to the GM to make sure regardless of what the PC's do, that he or she maintains the uniqueness of the REH Conan stories and make no action/situation mundane. Otherwise you could just play Barbie & Ken in Hyboria.

I will quote myself:

But this is our way of playing this game, and if others want to play it another way, using the game system with another setting or the setting to play intricate plots with "geo-political intrigue", I have no problem with that. I'm not interested to play with them, but as long as they paid for it I think they can use the product like they want.

Strom, I as a REH-fan feel I have this kind of responsability. But other people came to this RPG by the comics , the movie(s), different RPG's (Dee&Dee, ...) or another way. Let them play like they want. I'm not interested by "The ladies in waiting" or "Barbie & Ken in Hyboria". But I'm not as shocked as you. A RPG system is often linked to a setting but why criticize someone like Clovenhoof if he uses this system for his homebrew world ? He paid for the stuff, he can do what he wants with it, no ? As long as we don't have to play with those who are not as interested as us by REH's original setting, where's the trouble ?

 

[Strom]

I wish Axerules and Crisippo would've read my first post. I'll quote myself:

Obviously, anyone can play any game any way they want to. My argument is they could play that same game in the any other RPG rule set or setting. No distinction.

It's beyond a can or can't literal discussion. Everyone can do as they please. This is a cognitive examination of the roleplaying concept that is - as voiced by Aholibamah - not exclusive to the Conan RPG but understood by anyone who has played a really good rpg. Often, it's the secret sauce - that discernible uniqueness that no other game can match. Ask yourself, what -if anything - you like about the Conan RPG? List them. How many of the things you listed is present in the canon of Howard stories? Probably many, if not all. When you play a game that consists of none of those aspects then you have failed as a GM to follow the responsibility you had to present the world of Conan - as described in the Howard stories - in response to what your PC's have done in their game.

The PC's can do whatever they want but the GM should make sure the consequences of those actions are in line with the essence of the game. This allows for the ultimate experince with the game. There is no penalty for this failure of responsibility except for others like myself pointing out your shortcommings as a Conan GM. That's all. Personally, no one on this board has displayed this failure except the author of the "Ladies in Waiting" thread. Yet, many of you feel the need to disagree with what you are personally doing (and I'm suggesting). Why?

Are you not pure? Has the taint of corruption affected your rationale mind?

 

[Axerules]

• Hi Strom !

I wish Axerules and Crisippo would've read my first post.

• Your first post is two months old and I didn't remember this sentence. My fault. Forget my earlier post.

The PC's can do whatever they want but the GM should make sure the consequences of those actions are in line with the essence of the game. This allows for the ultimate experince with the game. There is no penalty for this failure of responsibility except for others like myself pointing out your shortcommings as a Conan GM. That's all. Personally, no one on this board has displayed this failure except the author of the "Ladies in Waiting" thread. Yet, many of you feel the need to disagree with what you are personally doing (and I'm suggesting). Why?

Are you not pure? Has the taint of corruption affected your rationale mind?

• I feel really mixed about this. As a GM and REH fan I wholeheartly agree with you. I don't want to GM (or even play) in Hyboria without being faithful to the setting. But one of my friends, who is also one of my PC's and a very good GM, does quite the opposite in his games. He likes to mix things coming from different sources. Once he used J. Vance references, a French RPG for the rules and his own creativity: he made a map, inserted countries, altered the background... Was he "faithful" to JV ? No. Was it a good RPG experience ? Yes. I'm not a JV fan, so it didn't bother me but I couldn't accept to play with him if he did that with Hyboria. On the contrary, some of our fellow gamers are "Tolkien purists". Nobody in our gaming group ever succeeded to GM in Middle Earth for a long time because of some comments like "the name of the son of this Elf should be"...

• BTW, IMHO Soulmage shouldn't have used the "R" word and be so sarcastic. Without trying to do the police, I think we can present cogent (and opposite) arguments and stay polite. 8)

• I hope I'm not "corrupted". I have no horns thus far... :wink:

 

[tneva82]

You make my point for me. What's ridiculous is a campaign not in the style of the Conan stories - otherwise why play Conan?

Because there is more to Conan than your ridiculously black and white view...

There is more to the game than the name or the physical map.

Yup. Which is why a lot of different styles can be done in Conan RPG. More than your narrow view allows.

Fact: There's infinite amount of different campaigns that are appropriate for conan RPG. There's less than 1 inappropriate campaigns for conan RPG...

 

[Soulmage]

Hit a soft spot in ya? Probably a high percentage chance...

Only from the perspective that condescending "know-it-all's" annoy me.

I love how you say the post is ridiculous then say ", I'm going to be starting up a Conan campaign when 2E comes out. Its going to be pretty much an action-only game very much in the style of the Conan stories. . ."

Your assertion IS ridiculous. Just because I CHOOSE to run my game in a manner that happens to match your ideas of what a Conan game should be, doesn't mean I have any "responsibility" to do so.

I think there is a responsibility to the GM to not let his/her players dictate the style/atmosphere/events etc. - it is up to the GM to make sure regardless of what the PC's do, that he or she maintains the uniqueness of the REH Conan stories and make no action/situation mundane. Otherwise you could just play Barbie & Ken in Hyboria.

The problem is, as mentioned, your use of the term responsibility. As if a person who disagrees with you is doing something wrong.

They are not.

If they choose to play "Barbie and Ken in Hyboria" their game is just as valid and "correct" as yours is.

 

[Strom]

Hello Axerules - hope you are doing good. Different sources are great inspiration. I would just contend that the GM needs to make sure to keep the PC's - no matter what they are doing - cognizant of the uniqueness of the Conan's unique elements/game.

Only from the perspective that condescending "know-it-all's" annoy me.

Quit whinning SM - this is a discussion beyond knowledge, it's abstract, try to follow my hypothosis:

Your assertion IS ridiculous. Just because I CHOOSE to run my game in a manner that happens to match your ideas of what a Conan game should be, doesn't mean I have any "responsibility" to do so.

I'll try and write slow. If the game has no distinguishable elements from any other RPG besides location then what makes it the Conan RPG? There are many fantasy rpg's out there that are similar to the Conan RPG - but in order to truly capture the essence of the Conan RPG - to play the elements and mechanics that separate Conan from other RPG's, one must follow certain dictates/elements that have been established by Robert E. Howard and which have been incorporated into the game.

The responsibility to make this happen - to separate the Conan experience from any other generic fantasy rpg is on the GM. You have already admitted that you follow this logic - what offends you is the simplistic notion that if someone plays a "Ken & Barbie in Hyboria" game with the Conan RPG, it is Conan in name only. That's it. Why does that offend you? If I existed or did not exist, the truth of the situation would be the same. That is why some other system adventures do not translate well to the Conan RPG.

The problem is, as mentioned, your use of the term responsibility. As if a person who disagrees with you is doing something wrong.

They are not.

If they choose to play "Barbie and Ken in Hyboria" their game is just as valid and "correct" as yours is.

Damn, make me the King why dont'cha? I'm just a fan of the game and the author who's stories made the game possible. If you want to play "Ken & Barbie in Hyboria" and post that on a website dedicated to the game, filled with fans of the author, then you need to be prepared for some legitimate criticism. In your attempt to dismiss my suggestion you create a wall of silence and censorship simply because you feel offended. That can't be good.

Because there is more to Conan than your ridiculously black and white view...

There really isn't trev6543 - it's why the game is called Conan and based on REH's stories. Your adventure could take place anywhere and with any system. Just stating the facts. I'll not tell you how it should be run, I'm just telling you that your adventure is generic and that falls on the GM. But, the good news is what the hell huh? :lol:

 

[Soulmage]

Strom, repeating your childish "my way is the only right way" argument over and over again like a broken record doesn't make it any more true.



You want to talk about your responsibility. . . how about your responsibility not to display what a complete and total idiot you are in a public forum? Perhaps you should concentrate on meeting that responsibility for a while?? LOL!!

 

[rgrove0172]

Pitty, this was a very interesting post - addressing a topic I felt well worth the time and imagination of the regular posters here. Its a shame it been reduced to a slug fest.

 

[Crisippo]

I don't think it's necessary for this thread to degenerate into mindless bickering and name-calling. My apology if i've contributed to that.

Storm i respect your views and i see that you've contributed to a great game. Good work!

I don't think i've been able to really get my point across but as you've stated anyone can play the game the way they want to. I'll just give it one more go:

I'll just give you this to chew on for a while. It seems, to me at least, that you are claiming that a GM's responsibility is towards a distinct Conaneque, or REH-like, causal relationship between the actions of the protagonists and the world they operate in. My point is that this definition of responsibility to the Conan-stories is to narrow to fully capture the essence of REH's world. There is more to this than your in-game causality thinking.

Hence, i would claim that Barbie & Ken in Hyboria would make an amazing adventure for the Conan Rpg, if it could be done in the spirit of REH's Conan-stories! (I'm not saying this is possible, mind you... I don't know engough about Barbie and Ken )

 

[Se Chris]

Yers...

Go Go Moderator Voice:

Guys? Calm down. Cool it. Chill.

Differing opinions are fine. Discussions, even arguments, are fine. Personal insults are not.

By all means, discuss your preferred way of running Conan, but do not level personal attacks. If someone will not be convinced of your point of view, walk away.

This applies to everyone since I'm specifically naming no names and pointing no fingers.

Thankyou.

 

[Soulmage]

Sorry.

 

[rgrove0172]

Ill offer some extremely simplistic logic to the discussion in the way of the old saying....

"If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and acts like a duck - odds are its a duck."

Now Im stretching here but bare with me. My use of the old witisicm is to illustrate that sometimes the obvious is the best way to percieve something. Granted, there are limitless ways a Gamemaster could run a game in this case and still call it Conan, or Hyborian Adventure, or whatever. Sure - its senseless to rangle someone's imagination or criticize them if their dream differs from your own, and yes of course the ultimate judgement lies in the hands of their players. If they are happy then absolutely no one has the right to question what the GM is providing. Its working....they have fun... period.

BUT - If you were to ask a hundred fans of REH what components they felt best made up the kind of adventures Bob spun and how someone could emulate them in a game - I think you'd get a pretty concise list. The majority would agree that some of the ideas expressed by some gamers simply isnt true to the spirit of the genre. Does that make it wrong- of course not, but I think it fair to say it does make it unusual and probably warrants a careful explanation to the players before game begins because it deviates from the accepted norm.

Its not a duck, in other words - despite its looks, noise and actions.