Giving Ancients the Fear Factor

[Achiles]

It has seemed for a while that the Vorlons and Shadows are underpowered. They simply aren't nearly as scary as the were in the show. I was hoping the tournament lists might fix them but they didn't go nearly far enough. I think the Vorlons are almost there but the Shadows are still pitifully unimposing. While alot of people would like to simply see the Shadows get back adaptive armour I honestly think they would then be too much like the Vorlons. Keeping this difference in how they work I think adds to the flavor. These are the changes that I propose. These could be applied to the tournament ships or SFoS ships although they are more meant for the tournament lists.

The Shadow Ship's Self-Repair is increased to 4d6 and the Slicer Beam's range is increased to 24". The Shadow Hunter's Self-Repair is increased to 3d6 and the Slicer Beam's range is increased to 18". Shadow Scout drops the Phasing Pulse Cannon and gets a Molecular Slicer Beam; 12"; F; 4AD; Beam, Double Damage, Precise, Super AP. The Shadow Fighter gets Precise on its Polarity Cannon.

The Vorlons I think are actually pretty close to being strong enough. I am going to be fairly conservative on these guys and give them a small boost for now. Though I do think they probably need more. I would give them a +1AD on each weapon of each of their ships.

 

[Guchi]

Actually post tornament list, I think the shadow rules are not far off at all. I don;t think the range needs to be changed on either vessel and I think the hit points increase has made a real difference. The SM on the ships together with the straight line speed increase means they close fast and get into good posistions quickly.

I am dead against giving the scout a slicer beam. It would change the usage of the ship, which is a scout with heavy anti-fighter support. the issue isn't the scouts balance but rather that the fighters its designed to kill arn't as scary as they could be.

Vorlons have a few minor issues, The lack of a scout (which I noticed was a varient on the transport in past b5 games) which is not localised to them admitedly and capital ship manovuerablity. A light cruiser currently for a battle level class puts out a potentially hammering amount of damage, but then spends ages getting back into the battle. All stop and pivot should be avalible to vorlons at the very least. and a carrier ability is needed too.

 

[l33tpenguin]

I have a massive write up on (primarily) the Shadows.

A problem with changes to them is game balance. Shadow vessels *should* be something mroe like 2d6 self healing, adaptive armor with the slicer beam in a forward arc but with 30 range. I go over in detail why this should be, based on what is seen in the show. As they are right now... they aren't very impressive.
I think a way to balance might be to have shadow ships cost 2 points per ship instead of 1. That way they could be made far more powerful, but at the expensive of costing more.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Shadow Scout drops the Phasing Pulse Cannon and gets a Molecular Slicer Beam,

The Vorlons I think are actually pretty close to being strong enough.

You can't drop the phasing pulse cannon, because that's clearly the weapon we see it using in the show! :roll:

And as one of the playtesters of the tournament list I'd argue that the shadows are better than the Vorlons, that amazing agility and turreted fire is a HUGE advantage whereas the Vorlons are hampered by poor agility and restrictive arcs

 

[frobisher]

Shadow Scout drops the Phasing Pulse Cannon and gets a Molecular Slicer Beam,

The Vorlons I think are actually pretty close to being strong enough.

You can't drop the phasing pulse cannon, because that's clearly the weapon we see it using in the show! :roll:

Except for the occassion we see it fire a Molecular Slicer Beam... AOG had a variant of that hull that carried a Medium MSB.

 

[Achiles]

I thought the Shadow Scout never actually fired its weapons on the show. That is what I had been told repeatedly. So I figured instead of giving it some funky PPC crap give it a weapon we know the Shadows had. Also at raid level or below the shadow scout is pressed into service as the main line ship of the Shadow fleet. With that little PPC it isn't really capable of that role.

Ofcourse if it definately did firing the PPC on the show then the whole argument I just made is moot.

 

[frobisher]

I thought the Shadow Scout never actually fired its weapons on the show. That is what I had been told repeatedly. So I figured instead of giving it some funky PPC crap give it a weapon we know the Shadows had. Also at raid level or below the shadow scout is pressed into service as the main line ship of the Shadow fleet. With that little PPC it isn't really capable of that role.

Ofcourse if it definately did firing the PPC on the show then the whole argument I just made is moot.

Consider it moot - its very first appearance it tore the Whitestar a new one with them as it closed for the ram...

 

[Achiles]

Consider it moot - its very first appearance it tore the Whitestar a new one with them as it closed for the ram...

It has disapeared and died faster than a halfling in quicksand.

Although it might get reincarnated....

Except for the occassion we see it fire a Molecular Slicer Beam... AOG had a variant of that hull that carried a Medium MSB.

So maybe a varient could be introduced that drops the PPC for a MSB? It could drop scout or stealth or even both as payment.

 

[Jal]

Except for the occassion we see it fire a Molecular Slicer Beam...

can you tell me the episode that it used the beam as i totally missed that one! :shock:

 

[B5freak]

I don't remember ever seeing it fire the slicer either. Episode ref would be handy.

I like the tournament Shadows, though I think that a) the Cruiser should have a Fore arc only on the slicer; and b) Shadows should have the ability to phase in regardless of what the scenario says.

The Vorlons on the other hand, are in desperate need of a re-work. There's a lot of ways to handle it, but my favorite three (assuming the SFoS starting stats) are 1) increase Light and Heavy Cruiser Hull values to 6, 2) make all Vorlon weapons twin-linked, and 3) give them a Fore 180 fire arc. This keeps the slow, ponderous movement aspect of the fleet, but increases their ability to bring guns to bear and improves their ability to deal damage on a consistent basis. The Hull upgrade gives both the Light and Heavy Cruisers a much needed survivability boost without resorting to expanding their Damage.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

And as one of the playtesters of the tournament list I'd argue that the shadows are better than the Vorlons, that amazing agility and turreted fire is a HUGE advantage

..bloody turret... :evil: :evil:

Wulf

 

[emperorpenguin]

Except for the occassion we see it fire a Molecular Slicer Beam... AOG had a variant of that hull that carried a Medium MSB.

Can you give an episode reference Frobisher?

I thought the Shadow Scout never actually fired its weapons on the show. That is what I had been told repeatedly. So I figured instead of giving it some funky PPC crap give it a weapon we know the Shadows had.

Watch the fight scene between the White Star and Shadow scout in "Shadow Dancing" Achilles, you'll see the phased pulse cannon there, it fires purple energy bolts

 

[emperorpenguin]

Belay that request Frobisher!

He's right, I just watched the battle scene in "Shadow Dancing" on slow and there's a shot of a Scout firing a slicer beam and taking out one of a pack of 3 Drazi ships (sorry Wulf! ) it's chasing.

Now this could be one of the numerous gaffs we see in B5 or we could use this as the rationale to get a Shadow Destroyer vessel :twisted:
Perhaps drop the scout down to the vacant skirmish slot?

PS it's a real blink and miss it part of the scene you'll need to slow it down to see it

 

[Wulf Corbett]

He's right, I just watched the battle scene in "Shadow Dancing" on slow and there's a shot of a Scout firing a slicer beam and taking out one of a pack of 3 Drazi ships (sorry Wulf! ) it's chasing.

Can you give me an idea where? I think the 'ships' are Sky Serpents. Anti-Fighter at work...

Wulf

 

[emperorpenguin]

He's right, I just watched the battle scene in "Shadow Dancing" on slow and there's a shot of a Scout firing a slicer beam and taking out one of a pack of 3 Drazi ships (sorry Wulf! ) it's chasing.

Can you give me an idea where? I think the 'ships' are Sky Serpents. Anti-Fighter at work...

Wulf

ok go to the scene where the White Star gets its engines back on line just after Steven starts crawling up the wall...
as the white star powers up and starts moving play it on slow and watch the right hand side of the screen

 

[emperorpenguin]

hard to make the ships out but they could be white stars

 

[Shadow Queen]

Im going to call my shadow fighters "Spitfires" as it looks as if it is going to spit

 

[lastbesthope]

Just dug out the DVD, it's about 26 mins into the ep, agter the WS gets power back and moves off, some Drazi ships (dunno which, Wulf?) come up from below screen and move off up and slightly right, then some WS come on from the right and head away from our POV.

LBH

 

[lastbesthope]

Im going to call my shadow fighters "Spitfires" as it looks as if it is going to spit

You wouldn't be the first one to do that.

LBH

 

[Shadow Queen]

Im going to call my shadow fighters "Spitfires" as it looks as if it is going to spit

You wouldn't be the first one to do that.

LBH

You are a Cheeky Little Monkey