Generic ISA Balance Issues - Allies vs. Set List

[Hindsight]

Much of what I'm hearing is that the ISA is suffering some backlash because our allies allow us to add your cheese, to our cheese, and make some kind of super cheese. As a newer player, that thus far only plays ISA, the answer seems pretty obvious, and thats to limit the allies that the ISA can take, or to allow every fleet to take ISA, like mercenaries are handled in many other games.

The White Star can work for Minbari, Earth, Narn, Centauri and the league worlds, basically anything but Psi Corps, Vorlons, Drakh, Dilgar, and Shadows. The Tara'lin can only work for Minbar or Earth, etc. Take it ship by ship, and come to figure out what each ship would offer other fleets, and then some kind of FAP for taking ISA, maybe one FAP up to 5 points, and 2 up to 10.

That said, I don't want to say that Babylon 5 needs to become World of White Stars, but if the appropriate year was in play, and an allied world were to call out for help, the White Stars would be there to help.

If this doesn't fly, a set list of allies for the ISA, limiting the cheese factor. I just don't want to play a game where if I ever do win, it is because of the fleet I chose, and not because of my choice of tactics.

Oh you're playing ISA? Well, I've only got EarthForce, so I guess you win!

:/

 

[skavendan]

If you don't want people to complain about your choices don't take Centauri + Gaim or any thing with an E mine.

I don't know exactly what the limit is for ISA choosing allies but 9/10 times people go for Gaim emine + fighters /pods or narn E-mine.

Frankly 2 Fleets should get emines as its part of how they play Narn and Gaim all these other fleets should have them removed far too many emines around.

 

[Methos5000]

I would prefer a limited allies list. Make it something like the Aol where the ships we can take as allies are listed, make up whatever fluff is required to do it (some ships are very expensive/rare in allied fleets thus making it unlikely they would send it to be commanded by someone else).

This way we can still have some allies but you can eliminate the ships that fill up ISA fleet weaknesses to well.

This has the side effect of some people losing out being able to use some of their models, if they bought models exclusively for their ISA fleet, however if we eliminate all ISA allies like some have proposed how is that any different except that ever more people are losing out on their chance to use their models.

 

[Methos5000]

If you don't want people to complain about your choices don't take Centauri + Gaim or any thing with an E mine.

This doesn't matter if the person has a win at all costs kinda attitude he is not gonna care if people complain.

I don't know exactly what the limit is for ISA choosing allies but 9/10 times people go for Gaim emine + fighters /pods or narn E-mine.

I must be the 1/10, I have never, nor will I ever (barring drastic changes to their fleet setup) taken Gaim allies with ISA. I do think that Gaim allies are busted for ISA it makes them too good hence why I would prefer a limited allies list.

Frankly 2 Fleets should get emines as its part of how they play Narn and Gaim all these other fleets should have them removed far too many emines around.

I don't think there should be this many races with emines, however the Brakiri had a ship with emines long before the Gaim even existed in ACTA I don't think they should lose it. It was fine when it was just Narn + one Brakiri ship, now its just got out of hand for a weapons system that ignores so many defenses and is AOE. I'm sure the Minbari/EA/ISA players are happy to hear that almost half the galaxy (of course EA is included in that so they become part of the problem) can ignore their primary defenses.

 

[Da Boss]

I'd be tempted by the following

1) A good Army of Light list which includes a nice variety of ships - and I think the present one is getting there.

2) Either give the ISA a new Skirmish choice (as per suggestions) or my preference make the present ones worthwhile - say give them Stealth 3+ or even 4+ as they are Minbari ships and then remove allies........

I worry about giving races such as my beloved Centauri access to the White Star ............

3) maybe make it so that a League (I don't think the Great Powers will want them along except in extremis) race can either take other league allies or 1 (or maybe 2?) FAP of ISA to represent the ISA intervening on behalf of that race?

I am probably worng but I think all these combined could help? :?:

 

[katadder]

I must be another of the 1/10 who doesnt take gaim, usually take abbai allies if any for tough init sinks.
I would remove allies from the ISA list completely as it can pretty much stand on its own and replace with the following allies rule:
In campaigns any member of the ISA, ie league races, narn, minbari or EA may sppend one FAP on ISA ships. This ships may only be used in defensive battles as the ISA is not there to help aggressors just to defend borders. You may not use these ships if the ISA attacks you.

 

[silashand]

I don't know exactly what the limit is for ISA choosing allies but 9/10 times people go for Gaim emine + fighters /pods or narn E-mine.

That does seem to be the two most commonly seen.

As for other emines, I think only the Brakiri have them, and only on one ship IIRC so they really aren't all that common. I know emines generate a lot of hate all around, but IMO two races who use them as primary weapons is not too many IYAM. Especially since one of those races has almost no other weaponry at all.

Besides, anything that gets under the skin of the poor little whitestar players is good by me... ;-)

Cheers, Gary

 

[Ripple]

It's not just the ISA that suffer from e-mine spread, Drazi lost hull in the latest edition to get dodge, and then saw e-mines spread to a number of races to effectively negate it.

As to who all has e-mines... Narn, Gaim, Pak (when squadroned) as primary weapons... as secondary we're seeing Abbai (terrain but not avoidable if played well), EA (missile variant but great choice for Olympus that are likely to die anyway), Brakiri (sure one ship, but fantastic array), ISA (might as well be primary), Psi Corp (due to EA hulls?), League, AoL.

So who doesn't have them... Minbari, Vorlons, Shadows, Centauri. Limited access is Vree and Drazi as non-league builds.

That's a pretty big spread.

Ripple

 

[skavendan]

EH? Psi Corp can not get E-mines. If your no about the missile thing. Everyones already said they think it sucks. And I wouldn't take a 1 Shot emine.

Psi Corp suffers from E-mine attacks too first it kills all my fighters then Mothership + fighter carrier + shadowcloak all hull 4. It ignores stealth and interceptors so it screws me too.

 

[Hindsight]

For a time, I thought we were on to something, making some good discussions towards changes, but now we all seem to disagree all over again on what the issues are, and what can be done to make things better.

A sad panda this all makes me.

 

[skavendan]

For a time, I thought we were on to something, making some good discussions towards changes, but now we all seem to disagree all over again on what the issues are, and what can be done to make things better.

A sad panda this all makes me.

Well we can talk about change all day like politicians or we can game test and post battle reports which I find far more interesting and accurate. Averages suck!

 

[CZuschlag]

On your "No" list are also Drakh, Dilgar, and Raiders, who are hopefully becoming relevant again!

Hopefully, we've argued sufficiently to kill the Fusion Missile, so EA will be off the list as well.

That would start to keep this list limited.

I'm surprised that with all the E-mine prolifieration, folks haven't taken to different E-mine radii, like Gaim Emines being range 2" or 1.5" or such. Same could be said about the G'Karith's mine system.

 

[Ripple]

Forgot the Drahk and the Dilgar... not sure why I always forget them... think it was because they came in their own books originally.

I can't add the Raiders as they had a allies rule with league ships. Get's them easy access.

For Hindsight -

We are making some progress... it's just that there are a few different things to be worked on. Whitestar/Bluestar are different from the fleet list in issues. Allies are problem, largely due to them being common... but not universal. j

Any game with a r-p-s balance issue will run into problems with expansion, because you eventually start adding new systems to each races breaking down the r-p-s balance you've previously established. It's why I argue against using that... don't balance whitestars too much on the idea that fighters kill them... cause there are answers to fighters in allies.

I like your knife fighting Whitestar... I think it addresses the issue we saw when the ship first came up in the second ed form. The new beam die was just too much, but pulling it in helps with that.

CBD is separate issue in that it is too strong, particularly for ships that can only lose a couple of AD to get the bonus. You can't fix the issue with it by toning down ships... the order itself causes the issues.

So...

Ripple

 

[Hindsight]

CBD cuts AD in half. Problem solved.

 

[Methos5000]

CBD cuts AD in half. Problem solved.

I agree completely with this. This removes the bonus of some ships using this as a freebie SA without sacrificing much firepower and allows bigger ships with many weapon systems to be able to fire something.

Though I would prefer CDB not stopping damage/crew but offering resistance to the effects of Critical Hits. Damage and Crew from crits still being applied but the effects could be stopped. But that is probably too big of a change balance wise for P&P.

 

[Foxmeister]

CBD cuts AD in half. Problem solved.

Except that it busts some ships. The G'Quan is bad enough as is, and this makes it far, far, far, far (keep going...) worse because it's secondaries never get to be used.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Methos5000]

CBD cuts AD in half. Problem solved.

Except that it busts some ships. The G'Quan is bad enough as is, and this makes it far, far, far, far (keep going...) worse because it's secondaries never get to be used.

Regards,

Dave

So its not currently broken that it gets to freely use CBD with no penalty?

 

[Foxmeister]

So its not currently broken that it gets to freely use CBD with no penalty?

I said that it *busts some ships* - didn't mention anything about CBD being broken now did I?

However, it does get a penalty - it can't use those 8" secondaries that it currently doesn't get to use whether it's on CBD or not because they are never in range. At half AD on CBD, a G'Quan would have less usable AD than a Var'Nic or a Dag'Kar. Hell - it'd even have less than a White Star!

The point is that some ships will actually gain from this new proposal for CBD, and others will lose out a lot. For some ships that may be appropriate (e.g. Demos, Dag'Kar etc) but for others it just makes a bad situation worse which is why I take issue with "Problem Solved" because it doesn't do what it says on the tin!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Hindsight]

Saying that something doesn't work on the G'Quan, is like saying your Ford Focus doesn't perform like a Formula 1 Race Car. The thing is a piece of junk to begin with. If it got an update, that wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Foxmeister]

Saying that something doesn't work on the G'Quan, is like saying your Ford Focus doesn't perform like a Formula 1 Race Car. The thing is a piece of junk to begin with. If it got an update, that wouldn't be an issue.

Again, I said *some ships* - the use of some and the word ships being plural, meaning more than one. The G'Quan just happens to be the most obvious, and high profile, example.

Regards,

Dave