Generalization vs specialization

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Greetings,
as we all know, the MI (especially PAMI) have lots and lots of weapon options available to them. If I'm not mistaken, the 'standard' armament for a squad is 1x Triple Thud, 1x Javelin and 6x Moritas. I assume everyone is supposed to get a shock stick and frag grenades too, but that's just a guess. This would make for a weapons combo that works at all ranges, covering every possible role the squad could possibly run into.

However, the Triple Thud would not be able to contribute much if the squad takes up long range fire support position, nor would shock sticks, whereas a squad optimized for close-quarters assault, with triple thuds and flamers, would have nothing to use when the distance to the enemy increases.

So basically, I would like to hear people's opinion on weapon mixes within PAMI squads. Are you perhaps the kind of guy that believes that any unit should be able to take on any assignment, with a whole platoon of jack-of-all-trades that can cover each other if the primary 'speed bump unit' gets eaten, of the kind that has specialized loadouts for each and everyone, with close-in weapons and shock sticks for the guys expecting close combat, and sniper rifles, javelins and micro support platforms for the guys that stays far far away from any enemies? Oh, and please provide your reasoning for going either way, I am most interrested to hear everyone's thoughts on pro's and con's on the various equipment options.

 

[Mage]

I love the game but do not play very much, but I do the following:

1 Squad of 8 CAP troopers with 2 triple thuds, loaded out with corporal and sergeant. I use these as fire support, and to blast anything nasty that gets close. This is my 'big' unit so to say.

I have three other squads of five with the following: 2 Javelins, 2 flamers, 2 sniper rifles. Each unit has a role, Javelins for long range anti aircraft, snipers for doing chunks of damage to bigger things, and the flamers are there as a speed bump sacrificial should a large number of bugs get too close for comfort. I move the flamers around a lot, the big unit not as much, and the others relatively immobile until the poo hits the fan so to say.

I also have a maraduer in there somewhere, a sicon agent to bring down the priority level and a chas.

 

[Alexb83]

Generally speaking (hehe) generalisation is the way forward; however as you say, in certain situations (let's say you have two squads) it may be better to tool one squad to long range, and one to short.
This relies on neither squad being caught out in a situation where they are playing against their strengths.

Typically I don't play CAPS, I play Pathfinders supported by mechanised units like Exos or Marauders - and I tend to throw in a reaver for each squad (a must have) with a shredder or two for close support, or a shredder + sniper rifle.

Rather than tooling an army for maximum effect against a known opponent, I like to play generalist lists because you never know what you may face off against (so I always have some AA, some anti'tank', some anti infantry).

 

[Mage]

Oh, and as a side note I would never really go near shock sticks, and I think grenades thrown are useful with some squads.

 

[Galatea]

I prefer specialised Squads.
The Javelin is a good allround weapon, working against any enemy (except Carrion Bugs) at all ranges.
Weapons I would combine are Javelin & Sniper Rifle (do this sometimes) or Hel Flamer & Triple Thud (never done though).
I can't see a point in having half of the Squads heavy firepower wasted at high ranges.


According to the RPG there is no 'standard loadout'.
E.g. our RPG-Squad (a recon unit) has two Sniper Rifles, one Derringer and no heavy weapons (except the explosives our Pioneer is carrying and the two scatter bombs on the TAC UAV of our ComTech).

 

[Alexb83]

Oh, and as a side note I would never really go near shock sticks, and I think grenades thrown are useful with some squads.

I differ here - my Pathfinder NCOs carry shocksticks. You never know when the parry trait could come in handy (and it's dead cheap to buy).

 

[Mage]

Derringer eh? I never did like the minis for the micro weapons support platforms, I may try converting a palstic troopers holding one of them someday.

 

[tneva82]

So basically, I would like to hear people's opinion on weapon mixes within PAMI squads.

Generally I either go for 2 of the same or flamer/tripple thudd or missile/sniper rifle combination. Keeps ranges roughly even.

Though eventually it all comes to close range jumping furbal so it's not that crucial as long as I have some javelins to soften big targets from range(like plasma bug! Especially if I have marauders since they seem to be made of plasma-magnetic metal...).

2 flamers is brutal though. And there's certainly something to be said about pair of tripple thudd gun. 6D10 with piercing ability chops warriors nicely. Complements morita firepower nicely.

 

[Goldwyrm]

I run more games than I've played and admittedly play Bugs more often than MI.

That said, when building out my Mobile Infantry I prefer specialized squads, i.e.- 2 of the same weapon upgrade. I do the same weapon primarily on the theory that my squad will be doing the same action so I wouldn't mix say a pack weapon upgrade with a squad weapon upgrade. I also prefer heavy fire support to come from Marauders, Reliant platforms, or other assets.

My 1st MI Platoon has a squad with 2 javelins, a squad with 2 Triple Thuds, a squad with 2 flamers, etc. I use the individual sniper rules so none of the squads typically have a sniper rifle.
My 2nd MI platoon has 1 weapon upgrade and I also have 1 each of the Reliant platforms and a bunch of micro platforms to augment the squads with.
My Roughneck Platoon has the Roughneck squad w/just Moritas, one squad with a javelin, a sniper and a CHAS. I can add Marauders for heavy firepower.
My WASP platoon has 2 flamers per squad currently although I may be changing that to Triple Thud GLs.

 

[Iain McGhee]

Usually two "general" squads (with a Sgt, 5 Morita troopers, 1 flamer and a Cpl in a M9 Marauder), one "support" squad with Sgt, 4 Morita troopers, a pair of Javelin troopers and a Cpl in a M8 or M9 Nighthawk, sgt sometimes has TAC UAV)) and one "recon" squad (Sgt and Cpl with sniper rifles and Neodogs -PL2+- and 6 Morita troopers)

Pathfinders usually two squads with Sgt, Cpl (shredder), sniper, Javelin, medic and 3 morita troopers.

Always give all troopers shocksticks and sometimes grenades depending on points. General MI squads sometimes swap out Marauders for Javelins.

 

[Makoto]

Am all for specialisation:
LAMIs are for the short-range combat, usually backed up by CAP squads with twin flamers.
Long-range support is left for CAP officers in Exos (twin firestorms) or (seldom) in Marauders (usually a Chickenhawk) and an odd squad with Javelins.

This usually forces most of my units to approach the enemy positions, but then again am either defending (when they come close on their own) or attacking (when i have to advance anyway), and at any rate we tend to use a lot of terrain. On the other hand it allows me great flexibility on directing the heavy weapon fire, while getting quite serious punch on close range.

All that being said, I usually don't play on EVO rules.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

As I suspected, most people seem to favour specialized squads, or a mix.
I'm thinking about a close-combat unit myself, with two Triple Thuds, hand grenades and shock sticks, as well as both sergeant and corporal, and a total of 8 troopers.

As for maximum squad size, I'm thinking that this squad will see a lot of action, so the more they are the longer they can act as a speed bump. That's also the reason for having both a sergeant and a corporal, I don't want the rest of the squad to get eaten just because the sarge buys a farm.

The triple thuds should speak for themselves, a brutal amount of firepower that should prove enough to annihilate everything from huge warrior swarms to the heavily armoured tankers.

Hand grenades. Well, these guys will get close to the enemy, whether they like it or not, and at close range the grenades will provide a safer kill than the Morita rifle, right?

While I understand that not everyone likes shock sticks, they do strike me as a cheap life ensurance. The parry trait gives every trooper a small chance not to be torn in two, and that could make all the difference one day.

A question about sticks and grenades: If taken, does everyone in the squad have to buy them, or single models? I'm thinking that I'll probably never want the Thud troopers to throw grenades, as their standard weapon does so much more damage, but on the other hand, it might be good to have the grenades at hand, in case they have to react to someone sneaking up one them...

 

[Makoto]

Entire squad buys them, so there's no problem about who has them and who does not.

As for the Thuds... Personally am pretty much against them. Sure, they do have better range than Hels and the Piercing 1, but they pay for it with RoF - when push comes to shove they offer only 1/3 of flamer firepower at close range, even less when not playing on EVO reaction limits. For squads that are supposed to get up close it's a difference between having an extra 2d10 each shot or an inactive trooper cheering comrades on.

Regarding shocksticks - is the parry trait really worth paying those points? Bugs will roll insane amounts of dices anyway when they get to charge, so couple of re-rolls won't be much of a change. Nearly all other units (Skinnie and MI) will keep to shooting anyway. And in own turn it's better for MI to shot than to charge, if only to push the enemy back those 2".

 

[JoseDominguez]

In reality, generalisation is the way.
In SST, it's specialisation.
Why? Because the rules affect models in fire zones, not units. So, put all of the thuds/flamers in one unit of five, put the javelins in another. Then support each with a close support unit of 8 with cheap snipers.
If you need a to cover your javelins, put the thuds nearby.

When placing the models, use the cheap stuff to screen the javelins etc... Having snipers in the screening unit means they can fire at just about anything and are OK in reaction too, even if forced to go up front with thuds or flamers.
For pathfinders I do the same, but they are allowed three snipers. I tend to take units of five with three snipers and a javelin (take as many javelins as possible with pathfinders.... they are cheaper and better) I then bulk out the force using PAMI, I leave them with moritas and sniper rifles to keep the numbers up and costs down. As long as each pathfinder unit is near a PAMI unit, you can still lose the cheaper stuff. That would work even better with LAMI.
This would never work on a 'real' battlefield. But the SST rules stop you from really singling out models in a fire zone.
Just watch out for units jumping behind you.... although reactions should discourage this.

Look at it this way.... a unit with a sniper and a flamer will waste sniper shots if it advances, or will lose flamer opportunities if it doesn't. Two units, one with two snipers and one with two flamers can advance under sniper cover. If the sniper unit is attacked, it's still capable of putting a hole in the enemy. If the enemy sends units after it, then it's one of your cheaper units anyway.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Entire squad buys them, so there's no problem about who has them and who does not.

As for the Thuds... Personally am pretty much against them. Sure, they do have better range than Hels and the Piercing 1, but they pay for it with RoF - when push comes to shove they offer only 1/3 of flamer firepower at close range, even less when not playing on EVO reaction limits. For squads that are supposed to get up close it's a difference between having an extra 2d10 each shot or an inactive trooper cheering comrades on.

Hmm... I guess you have a point there, with the RoF. My plan is to keep jumping and moving, but of course this won't always be the case. On the other hand, they do have frag grenades to throw when unable to fire, but perhaps it's better to use flamers, or one flamer and one thud...

Regarding shocksticks - is the parry trait really worth paying those points? Bugs will roll insane amounts of dices anyway when they get to charge, so couple of re-rolls won't be much of a change. Nearly all other units (Skinnie and MI) will keep to shooting anyway. And in own turn it's better for MI to shot than to charge, if only to push the enemy back those 2".

Well, I won't be using the sticks to charge, as you say, shooting is preferred with MI, but I don't know, sure the bugs roll an insane amount of dice, but parry should reduce the risk of them killing too many troopers, and every trooper that survived a charge is a trooper that's in position to counter-strike and kill the charging bugs in his next turn.

 

[JoseDominguez]

As I suspected, most people seem to favour specialized squads, or a mix.
I'm thinking about a close-combat unit myself, with two Triple Thuds, hand grenades and shock sticks, as well as both sergeant and corporal, and a total of 8 troopers.

As for maximum squad size, I'm thinking that this squad will see a lot of action, so the more they are the longer they can act as a speed bump. That's also the reason for having both a sergeant and a corporal, I don't want the rest of the squad to get eaten just because the sarge buys a farm.

The triple thuds should speak for themselves, a brutal amount of firepower that should prove enough to annihilate everything from huge warrior swarms to the heavily armoured tankers.

Hand grenades. Well, these guys will get close to the enemy, whether they like it or not, and at close range the grenades will provide a safer kill than the Morita rifle, right?

While I understand that not everyone likes shock sticks, they do strike me as a cheap life ensurance. The parry trait gives every trooper a small chance not to be torn in two, and that could make all the difference one day.

A question about sticks and grenades: If taken, does everyone in the squad have to buy them, or single models? I'm thinking that I'll probably never want the Thud troopers to throw grenades, as their standard weapon does so much more damage, but on the other hand, it might be good to have the grenades at hand, in case they have to react to someone sneaking up one them...

Grenades are pack...... if you can throw a grenade, you can fire the thud.
So a unit with 2 thuds will roll 6d10 piercing one plus moritas, if they lob grenades, they'll roll eight d10, no piercing.
You have to buy them for everyone unfortunately, so buying them for a unit that has thuds is expensive...... 10 wasted points. If you want to go up close, I prefer flamers.
I keep grenades for units with no extra weapons. Nice, cheap units that can get to 10" and throw 8 D10. It's 40 points for two thuds, or 40 points with eight lots of grenades. 6 dice against 8 dice.
The thuds have better range, but I've found that using cheap grenadiers as a frontal attack can often leave you with options. E.g. advance in to 9", throw grenades. When the bugs advance...... beat feet, drawing the bugs into reaction range of more heavilly armed units.
The other use for them is as drop troops.... that's expensive enough without giving a unit lots of specialised kit. But eight D10 is enough to put holes in most units, plus no special weapon to lose. So you lose one D10 per casualty, no chance of the big gun being taken out.
Using grenades lets you use the entire unit as a weapon, rather than just six blokes to take off before the thud guns

 

[JoseDominguez]

Entire squad buys them, so there's no problem about who has them and who does not.

As for the Thuds... Personally am pretty much against them. Sure, they do have better range than Hels and the Piercing 1, but they pay for it with RoF - when push comes to shove they offer only 1/3 of flamer firepower at close range, even less when not playing on EVO reaction limits. For squads that are supposed to get up close it's a difference between having an extra 2d10 each shot or an inactive trooper cheering comrades on.

Hmm... I guess you have a point there, with the RoF. My plan is to keep jumping and moving, but of course this won't always be the case. On the other hand, they do have frag grenades to throw when unable to fire, but perhaps it's better to use flamers, or one flamer and one thud...

Regarding shocksticks - is the parry trait really worth paying those points? Bugs will roll insane amounts of dices anyway when they get to charge, so couple of re-rolls won't be much of a change. Nearly all other units (Skinnie and MI) will keep to shooting anyway. And in own turn it's better for MI to shot than to charge, if only to push the enemy back those 2".

Well, I won't be using the sticks to charge, as you say, shooting is preferred with MI, but I don't know, sure the bugs roll an insane amount of dice, but parry should reduce the risk of them killing too many troopers, and every trooper that survived a charge is a trooper that's in position to counter-strike and kill the charging bugs in his next turn.

Save the shockstic points..... if bugs get into close combat you are dead anyway. You can buy them shocksticks at 5 points each, or save the points, for every four units of PAMI, you've saved enough to buy another unit. What gives better odds? A re-roll vs a combat moster. Or a whole other unit to screen you good stuff with? Look at it another way...... would you rather have shock sticks for 4 units or a Chas?
What's going to earn more VPs
If the bugs get to you, the safest way to keep MI alive is to ensure you have other MI somewhere else

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

But, does everyone in the squad have to throw grenades in the same shoot action? My idea was to have everyone but the thud troopers throw grenades intead of firing Moritas when they get into range, while the thuds still fire as usual.

The grenades for the Thud troopers would be more like an emergency backup weapon, if the Thud has already fired and the troopers gets to react by shooting he could throw a grenade instead, right? Or can't pack weapons be used in reactions?

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Save the shockstic points..... if bugs get into close combat you are dead anyway. You can buy them shocksticks at 5 points each, or save the points, for every four units of PAMI, you've saved enough to buy another unit. What gives better odds? A re-roll vs a combat moster. Or a whole other unit to screen you good stuff with? Look at it another way...... would you rather have shock sticks for 4 units or a Chas?
What's going to earn more VPs
If the bugs get to you, the safest way to keep MI alive is to ensure you have other MI somewhere else

Well, I guess you have a point there
Well, maybe the extra chance to survive isn't worth that much in practice... I'll have to think about that for a while... I'll confess that one reason for issuing them would be because it would look good on the models, and feel good fluff-wise

 

[JoseDominguez]

But, does everyone in the squad have to throw grenades in the same shoot action? My idea was to have everyone but the thud troopers throw grenades intead of firing Moritas when they get into range, while the thuds still fire as usual.

The grenades for the Thud troopers would be more like an emergency backup weapon, if the Thud has already fired and the troopers gets to react by shooting he could throw a grenade instead, right? Or can't pack weapons be used in reactions?

you can't fire pack in reaction unfortunately.... so they'd be reserved for situations when the unit was within 10" 92 thuds and six frags). That means 40 points for thuds and 40 points for frags all in one unit. That's a lot of points to tie up in one place.
Frags are good in sniper units, I don't tend to bother if the unit has other close up weapons with D10's. In fact, I don't often bother with thuds at all, flamers are far more effective (thuds get three dice at D10 and fire once, no reaction. Flamers can fire in both actions d10+2 hitting everything and get to react). Thuds can get a good round of shooting in, then they need to back off. Flamers are best left up close, clever positioning can leave the enemy crisped under reaction fire, look at it this way, any bug player will charge straight in at units with triple thuds to neutralise them, they'll usually keep clear of flamer heavy units... you can often use this to draw out hoppers, again, clever use of snipers can lure them into a nasty trap.
And be cafeful about going for shock sticks 'for the look' the model is very flimsy and starts to look a little wierd when you try to get a whole unit holding them (have a look at the mk2 neodog shockstick.... that's less spear like).
Basically, if you need to start looking at ways of prolonging life in close combat vs bugs, then you've lost, spend those points on a:keeping away or b: maximising reaction fire as they close. Best way to survive it is keep well clear though. If a unit gets engaged, say a few words and send some letters to next of kin
Bug players never try to compete with MI at ranged combat, don't make the mistake of thinking you've got a hope in close combat. If you did, the game would be pretty much broken. Every 40 points wasted equipping a unit with shocksticks buys the bug player another 4 worker bugs......what's most cost effective, that's the equivalent of one extra worker for every two MI.