GEG Question for Drakh Players

How Effective is the GEG?

  • Just Right

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Too Powerful, Opponents Always Complain

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Too Weak, Doesn't Do Enough

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
  • Poll closed .

B5freak

Mongoose
I was just curious as to how effective you found the GEG to be on your ships.

If you voted that the GEG doesn't do enough, which ships does it seem weakest on and how high do you think it should be raised. (assume the Hull is remaining unchanged).

Thanks,

B5freak
 
i think its too weak for a couple of reasons: low hull ships make it easy to get past but thats a viable weakness. however pretty much any GEG be nuetralised by 1 or 2 hits from a DD weapon, and TD ones go straight through so almost a waste of time. these points are weaknesses that make it playable however so should be left as is.
the main problem with the GEG is any rolls of 6 on the damage chart ignore the GEG entirely. this means you fighters with multiple attack dice etc get through it far too easily and is what the GEG should defend against. i think you should actually be able to cause damage normally in order to cause a crit against a GEG equipped ship ie you have to already beat the GEG to get those crits, so 4 hits one of them coming up a 6 against a GEG 3 ship would get its crit, however 3 hits against the same ship would do nothing even if all came up 6s (unless DD or TD weapons of course).
 
I've barely played with Drakh, but on a theoretical basis it seems weak in most cases. Secondary batteries that are going to be scoring low enough damage to be blocked by GEG usually have most of their effect through crits anyways, which 'leak' through. One possibility would be for GEG to give a 6+ save even when exhausted, much like interceptors, or another comparably minor but universal benefit.
 
Despite being in on the playtesting, I now no longer think it does enough, but for an unusual reason.

I think it should continue to stop damage from critical hits, but not the critical special effect (if any), so long as a single hit gets through. hus, a crit doing only 1 point damage (no extra damage from the rit table) and -1 Speed will be stopped by GEG 1, but the same hit from a DD weapon, doing 2 points damage, will deliver 1 point damage, and -1 Speed.

The unusual reason for this is that I simply think it's easier to explain! Stop all the damage, stop the crit. Don't stop the damage, crit takes effect. Sounds simpler to me.

Wulf
 
Wow...

Having played against the GEG a few times and played as the GEG wielder slightly more I think the GEG is very powerful.

Katadder/Wulf - your solutions make the Drahk completely immune to fighters, do you think that balances with any other system in the game? Not to mention the GEG 3/4 ships become completely immune to average rolls on secondary weapons.

I could see the arguement for making the GEG as it was implied they playtested it. ie it stops x hits instead of x damage. That would give it proportion in it's ability to defend against weapons regardless of strength. Or changing the damage effect to stop the 'solid hit' portion of a critical hit, but in effect voiding the critcal weakness means that single damage weapons essentially become near useless as you cannot trawl for 6s against them.

Right now the Drahk rarely die to 'critical effects', or no more so than anyone else, but they do die horribly to multi-damage beams. Maybe that is just our group, but that has been fairly consistant. I would try to fix the scaling problem of the GEG rather than recreate the interceptor issue of being god in some fights and virtually useless in others.

Ripple
 
Wulf Corbett said:
Despite being in on the playtesting, I now no longer think it does enough, but for an unusual reason.

I think it should continue to stop damage from critical hits, but not the critical special effect (if any), so long as a single hit gets through. hus, a crit doing only 1 point damage (no extra damage from the rit table) and -1 Speed will be stopped by GEG 1, but the same hit from a DD weapon, doing 2 points damage, will deliver 1 point damage, and -1 Speed.

The unusual reason for this is that I simply think it's easier to explain! Stop all the damage, stop the crit. Don't stop the damage, crit takes effect. Sounds simpler to me.

Wulf
Agree with you if only for simplicity's sake :)

I don't think it's underpowered though and I've played with pretty much every type of Drakh fleet you can take. What GEG does is force to you learn a new way of playing the game - minimise the big shots coming your way at the expense of taking more smaller, secondary and tertiary weapons fire. It's actually quite tricky and although the Light Raider is a bit underpowered (and the Light Cruiser a little overpowered), the majority of the fleet is tough but fair to play with. Speed and hard hitting are really at their best in this fleet but one thing's for sure - you'd better not be a timid, cautious player when using them :D
 
Ripple said:
Katadder/Wulf - your solutions make the Drahk completely immune to fighters, do you think that balances with any other system in the game? Not to mention the GEG 3/4 ships become completely immune to average rolls on secondary weapons.
Immune to SOME fighters, yes. So send heavier fighters... And Secondary Weapons? Fine, use your Primary Weapons. These are SUPPOSED to be fearsome craft, the ships with GEG 3/4 have woefuly inadequate Hull and Damage/Crew ratings if you exclude GEG.
I could see the arguement for making the GEG as it was implied they playtested it. ie it stops x hits instead of x damage.
That, I believe, was only ever suggested by me, and, as it happens, I was proven wrong. We playtested it correctly, it's only my memory that's faulty!

Wulf
 
I have in the last 2 months adopted the Drakh as my secondary race. And man, if you take the GEG at face value, are you missing the point. It's NASTY.

The GEG gives you an option that many other fleets don't have -- drive right into the middle of a formation. Usually, if you go there, the secondary batteries will kill you dead, and the primary beams will kill something else. It's just about as close to suicide as it gets. Drakh Raiders go in, however, where angels fear to tread. The raider (especially the LR) can just waltz in, Dodge a whole mess of stuff, and, as long as the secondary guns aren't very big (7-8 dice is Light pulse, 6 dice twin-linked weak is OK), you'll come out standing tall. No other skirmish ship can even consider such a thing!

Flanking oftentimes just gives your opponent another set of guns to use during his fire step. The GEG, however, renders most of those secondary guns moot. If you're in love with Napoleonic flanking in space, this is the system that makes it work.

As to the Carrier and Mothership and the GEG not being enough -- it isn't. And it's not supposed to. Consider the mass of Raiders you got (SFoS) for those ships. In order to make sense fleet point sense, the Carrier and Mothership need to be dubious choices over the appropriate number of Raiders bought outright. Frequently, the value of the ship is purely in the raiders. To balance this, you need to have the value of the Carrier and/or Mothership be zero -- high liability, high reward. If the GEG got any stronger, they would not fit this profile.

As to the GEG 3 Cruiser -- it's a monster, and it's supposed to be, espeically given you've got a Hull 5 Battle-level main combat ship; that's very rare. Outside of the Minbari, they don't exist. Of course, their beam arrays are awe-inspiring (8 total dice!!). These brutes jump into the midde of a force, past beam arrays, and just go apes**t.

And the GEG makes all this nastiness possible. If there's three things I'd criticize, they would be

1). The Light Raider is just too durable
2). That Scout has WAY too many guns on it! Spooky!
3). The Fast Destroyer is downright pointless. 3 45's and 2" of move and I change my mind -- you'd then have to remove some of it s guns to balance it.
 
The Drakh fleet is pretty finely balanced. It has relatively low hull numbers but the GEG is a protection. But the smaller ships have the manouverability to keep away from primary weapons of the enemy.

While the GEG does stop some measure of damage, it is worth noting that Drakh ships have lower damage/crew numbers than other ships of the same priority.
 
Greg Smith said:
The Drakh fleet is pretty finely balanced. It has relatively low hull numbers but the GEG is a protection. But the smaller ships have the manouverability to keep away from primary weapons of the enemy.

While the GEG does stop some measure of damage, it is worth noting that Drakh ships have lower damage/crew numbers than other ships of the same priority.
And no surplus crew to mean close blast doors will be effective...
 
the scout may look nasty at first till you realise that its like the Dilgar scout, they have decent firepower but lack the stealth of just about every other scout so are (relatively speaking) VERY easy to kill...
 
The geg is "interesting" it can save your ass or leave you wondering what just happened, the drakh of course suffer from pathetic hull scores, low damage and crew and the new fighter rules.
I feel that the GEG would be better, if it ignored the initial damage from a "6" hit, which to be honest is how we have played it.
the Drakh get quite a mauling at the hands of some fleets, and the comment that the smaller ships are maneuvreable enough to get out of main weapons arc isn't too relevant if you are up against Abbai with more dice than a badger could eat, or the dilgar with the darn masters of destruction.
I think the Geg would be better served with higher hull or damage scores, making the drakh a truly formideable fleet, at the moment they are ok, but don't bring the fear factor of other races, which as one of the most technologically advanced races they should. But, it was a new game mechanic that is interesting, and can be useful from time to time, it just makes the drakh a little harder to play.
 
I reckon the GEG is just about spot on. The amount of time's i've had a near unkillable Light Raider, it's uncanny.

I'd like to see the ships with just a touch more damage and crew however, as a Primus WILL kill a Light Cruiser in one shot from it's main weapon. The poor Light Cruiser can't even bring guns to bear on a Primus most times.
 
I don't play Drakh, and haven't played against Drakh, but it seems to me its an effective counter to small ships that have low-AD weapon systems. Damage from larger batteries will tend to get through no matter what, but something like a 1 AD laser or 2AD missile probably won't, except for critical damage.

Chern
 
Hmm

Well sorry to hear it was a memory fault Wulf, hate those myself. But good to hear playtest was done on the right ruleset. Either way I still think that alternate explination fixes the one big horror the Drahk face which is multi-damage beams.

From a fluff perspective I do not have a real issue with the Drahk having some trouble with the huge pulse batteries as I would expect that they designed the ship to deal with the more advanced races beams. The fact that they do not deal well with the beams leaves me scratching my head. Roman history has a number of examples of the army optimizing itself to deal with the latest and greatest and being confounded by armies using older style weapons they had forgotten how to defeat readily. Or think the GEG spreads the energy of the beam around the hull where the pulses hitting everywhere lightely just leaves no where to spread too.

As to the immune to some fighters, that is exactly what I was talking about on several forums. Right back to the rock paper scissors approach to game design. Do you have a bomber in your list...no...well do not try fighters then. And the 4 GEG is immune to all fighters but the Tzymm under your approach.

I do not have the books in front of me (I have to borrow the Drahk book) so cannot comment on the damage/crew numbers, but I thought the Drahk balanced the heavy weapon suite, realative immunity to secondaries with weaker hull and damage crew scores. It feels very much like the old whitestar debates, where whitestar players wanted to be able to stand in front of the heavy guns and yet retain their manuever and crit potential. The ship has to have a predator it fears. Right now the only thing I see the drahk really fearing is the multi-damage beams. The big pulse batteries they should have the ability to out manuever, out range.

How many more hits does a beam get on hull 5 vs hull 6, what about hull 4 vs hull 6 or 5. Does the GEG cover that...if so the bloody thing is balanced the same way interceptors are. It gives you great cover vs the secondaries but only evens you up against beams. Because unlike interceptors it cannot be overloaded you end up down a bit on damage and crew. Works for me so far. Do not put it up against the Primus as its primary opponent, look at all the races. Your saying if it cannot deal with one of the biggest most dedicated beam ships in the game at that level its unbalanced, when its big weakness is that ship's specialty, I think your missing part of the balance equation.

Eh...just a design philosphy thing I guess. I have been playing the game like manuever should be hugely important, maybe I am wrong about that one.

Sigh...sorry folks, classic ramble from me, need to stop this just out of bed posting.

Ripple
 
Wulf Corbett said:
Despite being in on the playtesting, I now no longer think it does enough, but for an unusual reason.



The unusual reason for this is that I simply think it's easier to explain! Stop all the damage, stop the crit. Don't stop the damage, crit takes effect. Sounds simpler to me.

Wulf

Not a bad idea. The GEG is decent on the Cruiser and larger ships but too weak oneverything else. It becomes pretty much just an anti-fighter defense at GEG 1 or 2. It's not much good until you get to GEG 3.
 
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