Game Mechanics Question re: Armor and Hand-2-Hand

[Spectator]

OK I was making eggs this morning and a random though came into my head:

Can I beat up a guy in plate armor? With its 10point DR?

OK common sense/ real life: man to man (not grappling, per the rules) me hitting a dude with my bare fist on his breast plate or helmet, I think I would be liable to break my hand. Is this refected in the game mechanics or does the game accurately reflect reality?

Can you 'finesse' your punch to bypass armor, eg hitting the dude in the throat or armpit?

PS all my armor experts, out there, I have no clue about what really did, does, etc... So don't unload on my ignorance too much.

I was thinking this because if I had a thief with the feats ofImproved unarmed combat, striking cobra, and some 'backstab' damage dice (I can't remember the PC term for bonus damag, except the old D-n-D name, sorry); well couldn't my thief guy, walk up to the highly armored plate mailed black dragon guard, pull a striking cobra bluff, then unload with his fists of fury on his armored opponent and kill him?

It doesn't seem right, does it.

PS I am not talking about grappling in any part of this equation.

There's got to be some rules lawyers out there that know the answers.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

Eggs in the morning.
Breaking eggshells.
Broken eggshells=armour.
:lol: 8)

Punching a man in full plate would be a longshot, if all he had exposed was his face (assuming the visor was up). Brawl feat would be a good idea. Beat up, I don't know about, but getting in a surprise suckerpunch, perhaps. I would go with the Moe Howard eye-poke manoeuvre and then duck. :shock:

 

[slaughterj]

You seem to be conflating two different (though hopefully often related) matters, reality and gaming. In reality, it seems like a difficult task. In Conan RPG, sure, a fist is a finesse attack, so you could circumvent armor with it, and especially if you catch someone by surprise, it will be somewhat easier (though would still require a 20 (base 10 + 10 DR)) but still quite difficult.

 

[Sutek]

Can I beat up a guy in plate armor? With its 10point DR?

Just punching? Not realistically, and in game it's even stranger. You'll deal no damage, and you'll take no damage, but there's also the optional rule that if a weapon has any AP at all then it will always deal a minimum damage of 1pt per hit, regardless of whether the DR of the armor stops all damage normally or not.

Can you 'finesse' your punch to bypass armor, eg hitting the dude in the throat or armpit?

Yes, bare hands are considered light and one-handed, so can be Finessed.

I was thinking this because if I had a thief with the feats ofImproved unarmed combat, striking cobra, and some 'backstab' damage dice (I can't remember the PC term for bonus damag, except the old D-n-D name, sorry); well couldn't my thief guy, walk up to the highly armored plate mailed black dragon guard, pull a striking cobra bluff, then unload with his fists of fury on his armored opponent and kill him?

If a Thief were to have all of that and take "bare hands" as one of his weapons of choice for Sneak Attack Style, granting him multiple d8 damage dice on his Sneak Attack (what 'back stab' is called nowadays), then he could use all of the above to deal damage as Finesse attacks and inflict some serious damage.

Remember, damage is a representation of a lot of things in combat, but the least of them is actual physical harm. It's not necessarily wounds we're talking about here, but more like fatigue, norale and physical strain.

Even so, a couple of well placed kung-fu chops to the throat will hurt, and successful strike could also be considered to be wrenching of joints and nerve bundle strikes.

8)

 

[slaughterj]

I was thinking this because if I had a thief with the feats ofImproved unarmed combat, striking cobra, and some 'backstab' damage dice (I can't remember the PC term for bonus damag, except the old D-n-D name, sorry); well couldn't my thief guy, walk up to the highly armored plate mailed black dragon guard, pull a striking cobra bluff, then unload with his fists of fury on his armored opponent and kill him?

If a Thief were to have all of that and take "bare hands" as one of his weapons of choice for Sneak Attack Style, granting him multiple d8 damage dice on his Sneak Attack (what 'back stab' is called nowadays), then he could use all of the above to deal damage as Finesse attacks and inflict some serious damage.

Why would the Thief need to have "bare hands" as a Sneak Attack Style? Presumably he could do his "fists of fury" with the basic d6s of Sneak Attack, right? Or is there some narrow rule out there? (Note, the difference between doing d6s and d8s for Sneak Attack from a damage standpoint is marginal, as on average it is only 1 more point per die, so if you have 5 dice of Sneak Attack damage, that's going to be a lot either way, and only 5 more points if it is d8s.)

 

[Sutek]

"Presumably" nothing.

Just stating what is possible. If you want to do d6 sneak damage instead of d8, knock yourself out.

:?:

I don't nit pick, micro-manage or rulkes lawyer...but the damage difference is obviously marginal, but it is marginal in favor of useing d8s.

Sheesh.

:roll:

 

[slaughterj]

"Presumably" nothing.

Just stating what is possible. If you want to do d6 sneak damage instead of d8, knock yourself out.

:?:

I don't nit pick, micro-manage or rulkes lawyer...but the damage difference is obviously marginal, but it is marginal in favor of useing d8s.

Sheesh.

:roll:

My question to you was because he asked about using fists, etc., but made no mention of basic sneak attack versus sneak attack style, so I was confirming there wasn't some esoteric rule out there about fists, striking cobra, or somesuch that limited the above situation to use of sneak attack style attacks, as your post suggested. Don't get so worked up.

 

[argo]

Can I beat up a guy in plate armor? With its 10point DR?

Well, Brawl gives you a d6 unarmed strike and unarmed attacks have an AP of 0, so unless you finess or Power Attack for a lot you will likely lose.

OK common sense/ real life: man to man (not grappling, per the rules) me hitting a dude with my bare fist on his breast plate or helmet, I think I would be liable to break my hand. Is this refected in the game mechanics or does the game accurately reflect reality?

No, but he can prety much beat you to a pulp at his leisure so that is close enough for a game mechanic.

Can you 'finesse' your punch to bypass armor, eg hitting the dude in the throat or armpit?

Yes.

I was thinking this because if I had a thief with the feats ofImproved unarmed combat, striking cobra, and some 'backstab' damage dice (I can't remember the PC term for bonus damag, except the old D-n-D name, sorry); well couldn't my thief guy, walk up to the highly armored plate mailed black dragon guard, pull a striking cobra bluff, then unload with his fists of fury on his armored opponent and kill him?

Yeah this is legal. And why not? Its a sneak attack, you are not just punching the guy in his armored chest, you are giving him a judo chop to the throat and crushing his larnyx. :twisted:

Later.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I would go with the Moe Howard eye-poke manoeuvre and then duck. :shock:

Why, you...!

 

[Spectator]

Thanks guys for the input,
Yes its called SNEAK ATTACK, not backstab. Thanks Sutek for the subtle reminder :lol: .

 

[Sutek]

...hey, I never said I saw good at subtle!

:lol:

I would go with the Moe Howard eye-poke manoeuvre and then duck. :shock:

LOL!

I got this veeeerrrrry weird notion of a sudden and regular helmet nose-guard modification in the countries where your characters visit, YofY...

 

[Clovenhoof]

Talking about game mechanics. Did anyone else experience this: a new player joins your game, who doesn't know the system, and the very first thing his character does is not in the rules. It' refreshing but can bog the game down.

In this case:
"I pick up some dirt from the ground and throw it in his eyes."

At least I'm not aware of a mechanic for that. I let him pick up the dirt as free action, and handle it as ranged attack with an improvised weapon. He missed, though.

 

[Oly]

Talking about game mechanics. Did anyone else experience this: a new player joins your game, who doesn't know the system, and the very first thing his character does is not in the rules. It' refreshing but can bog the game down.

In this case:
"I pick up some dirt from the ground and throw it in his eyes."

At least I'm not aware of a mechanic for that. I let him pick up the dirt as free action, and handle it as ranged attack with an improvised weapon. He missed, though.

I get it with experienced players all the time as well......

I'd have treated picking up the dirt as drawing a weapon but other than that dealt with it as you did.

Thinking some more I might even have treated it as a nice description of bluffing in combat.....

 

[Evil_Trevor]

well couldn't my thief guy, walk up to the highly armored plate mailed black dragon guard, pull a striking cobra bluff, then unload with his fists of fury on his armored opponent and kill him?

It doesn't seem right, does it.

Well, lets think about it, yes you could walk up to him, sneak attack with extra feats and finesse past his armour and do some real damage. then again you are at the mercy of the dice and if you roll a '1' life isn't going to be fun.

I guess you don't get to join the Black Dragons at 1st level, These guys are meaty experienced soilders, fighting machines, First up they would get a sense motive roll, so you might not get them flat-footed, So you either kill them in round one or take whatever damage those big swords powered by the muscle and skill of an experienced knight can hand out, with little or no DR, ouch that could be not nice. That leaves you needing to win the initiative roll very very badly....

 

[argo]

Talking about game mechanics. Did anyone else experience this: a new player joins your game, who doesn't know the system, and the very first thing his character does is not in the rules. It' refreshing but can bog the game down.

In this case:
"I pick up some dirt from the ground and throw it in his eyes."

At least I'm not aware of a mechanic for that. I let him pick up the dirt as free action, and handle it as ranged attack with an improvised weapon. He missed, though.

Stuff like this, it is up to the GM to fly by the seat of his pants.

Off the top of my head....

-picking up a weapon from the ground is a move equivalent action that draws an AoO
-a handful of dirt is an improvised thrown weapon (-4 to hit) with a range increment of 5 feet (trhown weapons have a max range of 5 increments or 25 ft) and this requries GM approval that the dirt in question is suitable for the task
-hitting the opponent is a ranged touch attack, however the oppoenent gets a +4 to DV for the dinunitive target (his eyes) (please note, normally I am passionately opposed to called shots, but this trick can't work without it and I am trying to show how to make it work)
-the opponent must have an open-faced helm/no helm in order for this to work
-on a succesful hit the opponent gets a REF save DC 10, failure means he is blinded for 1 round and dazed for 1 round after that, a successful save negates
-obviously the dirt deals no damage

This is just an example of how you can use the system to guide you in inventing your own answers.

ALTERNATIVE ANSWER! 8)

-the player spends 1 Fate Point and declares that he scoops up some dirt and throws it in his opponent's face
-you declare the opponent to be blinded for 1d4 rounds


Hope that helps.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Thanks for your ideas. ^^ Some comments:

- Move Equiv. Action -- fair enough. (In this case the AoO doesn't matter because the opponents were 30ft apart, but then the char wouldn't have been able to pick up dirt, move up to 5 ft, and throw the dirt in one turn.
- I'd judge that dirt suitable for blinding you is so loose that the maximum range is 10ft. (precedent: net attack)
- The player targets the face, some will get into the eyes automatically, so the target size should by "Tiny" rather than Diminutive (You don't apply the sand with a tweezer). I didn't take this into account at all, to be honest, but should have been maybe -2 to hit.
- By your calculation, the total To Hit modifier at 10 ft amounts to -10. IMHO this is off. It's not _that_ difficult to throw someone some sand in the face at 3 metres / 10 ft distance. I think a -4 penalty is enough.

In this case, I didn't even have to think out the consequences because the player rolled a 4 or something, so he missed anyway. Ref save sounds good.

Finally, some advice:
When a player wants to pull off a stunt that requires you to make up some rules, and you are going to allow the attempt, make the player roll _before_ working out a whole new mechanism. So if the player rolls very poorly, you can save the trouble and keep the game going.

 

[Sutek]

Classified as an improvised ranged weapon, dirt automatically has a range increment of 10ft and a -4 penalty to hit. (page 124 Atlantean Edition).

I'd simplify things a bit and say that it's a improvised Splash Weapon (page 177) that you throw directly at the target. Improvised so it still gets the -4 (because it isn't really a "weapon" as most other grenade-type ranged weapons would be of this category) but at DC5. If you hit, the target gets a REF save (DC = 5+roll to hit maybe?) to avert or shield his eyes or e is Stunned for 1 round. The rest of the dirt tossed scatters like a Splash Weapon. If you miss, it just scatters. The scatter would do the same, but the DC to avoid it would only be DC5.