Gaim-simple solution to reballance

[Triggy]

The reason I suggested reducing the numbers is really based upon this being where the point of balance lies. With fewer fighters, they still easily overpower enemies but not so quickly and it's the ships with the most fighters that are the most powerful followed by the ones with moderate numbers of fighters.

I really don't mind the overall approach taken but I do think their entire list needs a good hard sit down and thrashing out which ships perform the best in combat and why. They're a very hard fleet to "instinctively" balance as they play so differently to other races and they're brand new so balance is bound to be an issue. A definite "bottom-up" review rather than looking at what couple of rules changes will "fix" the entire fleet list.

Also, cutting down on the flight computers would be nice

Oh yeah, and having fighter-heavy fleets still have a chance of beating them, even if this means they do so by stalling the waves of enemy fighters and giving their other ships a chance to act.

 

[GhostRecon]

I havn't played against Gaim much, but from what I gather here and my experience, I think some mixture of a limitation on how many Queens can be used and the amount of E-mine fire available is a major part of the problem.

Perhaps make it so that whatever priority level your purchase a Queen determines how many Queens you can have? Like, if you buy a Battle-level Queen ship (The "Shrutaa") you can only have two Raid level queens and four Skirmish level Queens ontop of that?

As Chernobyl pointed out far earlier, without some sort of limitations on the amount of Queens that can be taken, the point of "Protect the Queens" is... well, rather pointless.

The story behind the new Gaim fleet has always struck me to follow the idea that the Queen would have the highest "priority" or aka most powerful and protected ship available, and that the entire Gaim fleet was built around 1) Protecting the Queen at all costs and 2) Utilizing the nature of their race to swarm their enemy to death with expendable fighters/drones.

To that end, I think reducing the number of E-mines available or combining them at reduced AD is in order; in addition, removing the Flight Computers (Maybe making it so that as long as the Queen(s) are alive, all ships have Flight Computer?), and limiting how many Queens a fleet can have.

It strikes me that as Gaim are now, their fighters are supposed to be poor in quality but massively plentiful, swarming past the enemy CAP; but as it stands now, there is no starfighter CAP in the game that can survive the avalanche of anti-Fighter E-mines the Gaim ships can put out...

And if you don't take near to any fighters to counter the Gaim's Fighters and Breaching Pods, they can just concentrate those E-mines on your ships.

Sure, by themselves, those E-mines are -relatively- weak, but in conjunction with the inevitable avalanche of those awesome Breaching Pods and Klikkita fighters, it becomes almost, but not entirely, unstoppable.

I think that reducing the amount of Klikkita's isn't the solution, largely because Gaim seem to be purposed to be the "Fighter-swarm" fleet first and the "E-mine swarm" fleet second. Thus the proposal to reduce the amount of E-mine fire or AD strength.

Limiting the amount of Queens also plays a part in this, by 1) Making them far more valuable and the fleet as a whole vulnerable if you take a weaker Queen ship and 2) Forcing a broader fleet composition to use the other ships in the fleet, which serves to not only reduce the amount of E-mines -generally- available, but create different fleet compositions that makes the Gaim play more to what I think the developers had in mind..

For example, under this proposal, a more appropriate 5-raid build for Gaim would be:

1 - Shaakak Queen Cruiser
2 - Stuteeka War Carrier
2 - Shuuka Queen Light Cruiser
2 - Sataaka Gunship

Still a good amount of E-mines, but since the amount of Queens available is limited, there is an inherent weakness in the fleet because of them. Also, there are more Klikkita Fighters, but significantly less Breaching Pods than in the "Standard" 10 Shuuka Queen Light Cruiser build. (76 fighters, 18 breaching pods in "new" compared to 60 Fighters, 40 Breaching Pods in "old")

 

[inq101]

Triggy, I don't agree that the Gaim are so unbalanced that they need 'A definite "bottom-up" review' I've played 10 games with them and scored 6 wins and 2 draws against opponents I was teaching the rules to. I played 1 game against them so far and won soundly, and the 1 game I used them against an experienced player I was thrashed.

OK, I agree with the complaint with the flight computers. I suspect that may have been an oversight (should only work for damage and crew loss, not loss of Queenships).

Regarding number of fighters, you've got to remember, the fighters are the Gaim fleets most powerful weapon. They have got to not only beat enemy fighters but have enough survive to damage the enemy ships. Gaim don't have the option's almost every other fleet has, no bombers, no interceptors, just an average fighter/missile.

 

[Ripple]

Have to take exception to some of the those statements.

Looking through their ships you have strong hulls or great damage numbers on most of the ships, with interceptors, advanced anti-fighter and flight computer. Notable exception is the scout, but it has stealth 5+, and the Sataaka Gunship, which is average for its class.

They have no defense issues.

Fighters wise they have a dodge 2+, dogfight +1 fighter with a fleet carrier, available in very good numbers even without the best ships. They do not have any appreciable issue with standard fighter tactics. While it is true they lack a dedicated bomber (number of races still have issues here) they can turn virtually any fighter into a decent weapon.

That they are also an every turn e-mine race makes enemy fighter craft virtually irrelevant.

They have no fighter issues.

Weapon wise I would normally agree they lack in total AD, but it, for the most, part is turreted and long range and area affect. Since I have to generally chase you, closing on a distant point, I generally have to cluster ships, giving you the equivalent of at least double the shown AD. So the apparently undergunned Shaakak actually fires like 16 AD AP at range 30 in any arc every turn. Not undergunned at all.

The fact that you can do cool things like shoot around corners (template give three inch into the shadow of terrain) just adds to the happiness.

They do have some issues with concentrated damage on single ships, but given they can fight shooting over their shoulder largely makes this a non-issues as they can manipulate range much more effectively than anyone not super maneuverable. And they have a great 'blocker' in the Shrunnka which can litter the trail with breaching pods and then fall back into the enemy with really frightening firepower vs already damaged ships.

So far we're seeing no weaknesses without build in fixes, but they also have additional strengths once you get to know how they play.

They get +1 CQ, a big deal at times but situational, they get double dice for boarding, given the second ed rules and breaching pod access a very big deal. In campaign they even get free fighters and breaching pods.

The down side...if they lose all queen ships they suffer initiative penalties and CQ loss. The CQ loss means a relatively little, as CQ rarely comes up in defense but rather you would miss a few opportunities for extra attacks (again being a turret race means the normal need for maneuver orders is gone). Initiative loss could be a fairly big deal, but again... no bore sights, no 'good arcs' to worry about getting into, few range manipulation issues to get your shots off.

They do give up extra victory points for some ships, but they are likely to get extra victory points due to the ease with which they will capture ships. A wash to me.

That the one man above is using beating new players who don't know all the rules as a basis for saying they aren't a problematic race astounds me. The gaim are not broken by any one issue (all area weapons, all turret weapons, lots of fighters, lots of defense, lots of boarding beni's, lots of range) but the combo is over the top. You have to go from the ground up to figure out what they are supposed to do well.

You shouldn't be fighter immune if you have great anti-fighter main weapons.

You shouldn't be fighter immune if you have a good fighter stack of your own.

You shouldn't be tougher than normal if you can avoid the majority of enemy weapons while firing most of your own. (run and gun over the shoulder does this)

You shouldn't have great boarding abilities if you have easy access to the ability to strip boarding defenses off. (boarding defenses - avoid, escort fighter, anti-fighter. Can't avoid, as must chase, and escort as bombs remove, leaves one line.)

If your going to make something a weakness, it should be an achievable one, and it should balance with the advantage. (Queens too common, and CQ/initiative loss near the end of a fight is not much of an issue.)

Don't put big changes to basic rules in the races special rules because they become impossible to fix once ships start to combine up. (Double boarding comes to mind, as well as dynamic squadrons.)

Anyway....this turned into another sleep deprived rant....

sorry...

it just feels like Mongoose Steele's comments in the tourney thread... why were the gaim okay? Well because the folks he plays with would never think of taking a fleet like that. You don't test a rule system like that... you test by sitting down and trying to crack the math and maneuver, not by playing a bunch of friendly games.

Ripple

 

[katadder]

I test systems by sitting down and breaking them and did throughout 2e testing, at least on most ships, thats why some of the ships arnt as nasty as they could have been (i even got a reply to some of my tests that people dont make fleets like that). to be honest my tourney Gaim fleet was very balanced, its just people didnt know how to fight it.

yes the Gaim have long range turreted firepower but that firepower cannot crit, so therefore has to do every single last bit of damage to each of your ships (and also has a serious problem with GEGs of 2 or higher). the firepower is also easy to take down with a couple of -1AD crits, this will actually leave most ships with no weapons. then theres the fact its turreted only, 1 arc to lose.

yes the Gaim are tough, unless you shoot them with beams, then they are as tough as anyone else. and the war carrier is actually hull 4. on interceptors they have a few but thats not going to stop concentrated attacks. yes they have flight comps, but arnt people complaining that the losing traits to crits is a major thing?

ok you cant group ships, not a problem on a 6x4 board with an average 5pt raid fleet.

yes you cant have a fighter swarm against them, however fighters are far from useless now that you launch them in the end phase in 2e. wait until the swarm of fighters/pods is almost on you and then launch your fighters that end phase. a fleet carrier on scramble can usually launch upto about 6 fighters, now if these are furies they are at +3 versus the +1 of the suicide fighters the Gaim will have by that point.

yes they are good at boarding, but use the above tactic against pods and you win automatically. with the Gaim having so many fighters/pods you can almost guarantee to tie up 2 flights for every one of yours if you move 1st. or use secondary weapons, the pods are only dodge 5+ anyway, this would also apply to shooting at the crewed missiles.

I dont think the Gaim are as bad as people say. they can be beaten, you just have to change how you think a bit. which is a good thing for me as they freshen up the game. instead of facing the same old problems you have entirely new ones to try and beat.

 

[Da Boss]

I think Ripple summed it up very nicely

 

[inq101]

Ok, the ships are tough but not exessivly so. I've found them to be about as tough as the average front line fleet (exclude the fast but fragile stuff like ISA). The flight computers make them slightly above average, but this is one of the points I say change or get rid of.
However, they are VERY vulnerable to criticals. AD loss drastically reduces ANY of the ships firepower. The ships are generally slow and lumbering anyway. They don't have any trait they wouldn't mind loosing (maybe the computers). Most ships only have 1 fire arc.

I didn't really make my point about the Kithika in my last post. The basic fighter is average. Weak weapon, average dogfight, good dodge, other stats nothing special. Their advantage is numbers and the suicide rule. If Gaim had more versatile fighters I would agree with reducing their numbers. As it is the fighters tend to win the fighter war, the survivors go after the rest of the enemy ships, but are all dead by turn 6-7. Fleet carrier can't revive any fighter that has been swapped for a missile. Remember, an e-mine that has just killed 2-3 fighters didn't hit your other ships.

Weapons, I'd rather have the 16 AD any time. The e-mines never crit and I rarely see clusters of ships unless theres an escort. A Gaim fleet needs to concentrate virtually its entire firepower to seriously hurt most opponents. Compare that to most other ships where 2 or 3 ships can often cripple a similar vessel with one lucky round of shooting.

You also missed their other drawback. Speed. The majority of the fleet is about as fast and manouverable as a shopping trollie.

P.S. Yes, I do use this fleet against people I'm teaching the rules to. I've been playing less than 3 weeks longer than them.

Tom

 

[GhostRecon]

I think the primary problem with Gaim, and one others have pointed out but seems to have been ignored, is that because there are no limitations on how many Queens you can take, that entire dynamic is almost completely pointless.

If you put a limit on how many Queens can be used, then you 1) Make them far more valuable and the fleet as a whole vulnerable if you take a weaker Queen ship and 2) Force a broader fleet composition to use the other ships in the fleet, which serves to not only reduce the amount of E-mines -generally- available, but create different fleet compositions that makes the Gaim play more to what the developers may have had in mind..

For example, under this proposal, a more appropriate 5-raid build for Gaim would be:

1 - Shaakak Queen Cruiser
2 - Stuteeka War Carrier
2 - Shuuka Queen Light Cruiser
2 - Sataaka Gunship

Still a good amount of E-mines, but since the amount of Queens available is limited, there is an inherent weakness in the fleet because of them. Also, there are more Klikkita Fighters, but significantly less Breaching Pods than in the "Standard" 10 Shuuka Queen Light Cruiser build. (76 fighters, 18 breaching pods in "new" compared to 60 Fighters, 40 Breaching Pods in "old")

In conjunction with this, I think linking in some more abilities with the Queens might be good too, like losing Flight Computers if you lose the Queen(s).

Yes their ships are -generally- slow, but if you're careful to recall, all the Speed 6 ships have 40 inch range E-mines. The only ship that doesn't that is speed 6 is the Shaakak Queen Cruiser, which has range 30 e-mines.

So, yes, they are generally slower, but their range is so much that they can be set-up way on the rear of your deployment zone and pound you with long range fire, all the while moving away and launching fighters and breaching pods. In the gaming world, that'd be called "Kiting."

Yes you can reserve your fighters and launch them at the last moment, but you should remember, you're launching 6 fighters into what can easily be more than 20 Fighters and Breaching Pods. Even if you kill 6 of them, thats another 14 to attack you. And if they're the Breaching Pods, you're in trouble.

10 Shuuka Queen Cruisers carry 60 Fighters and 40 BPs, and can have that entire wave launched in two turns. Thats two turns you have to close to bring your bigger weapons into range, and even if you spend the next two turns pounding those fighters and BPs, its almost certain that at least 1/3rd will break through and cause havoc. And don't forget the 80 AD of AP E-mines ontop of that.

Sure, they don't do a ton of damage... but this is 5 Raid we're talking about. Most fleets won't be able to handle 80AD of AP E-mines directed on individual ships for long; most ships have around 40 to 50 damage on a Raid level ship... And thats even before the Fighter and BP wave reaches you.

So yes, each individual part of the Gaim fleet isn't that powerful. However, each -strength- of the Gaim fleet compliments the other parts, creating a single whole that is very powerful. Overpowered and unbeatable? No. But very powerful.

 

[inq101]

The slow speed means they have no real way of avoiding their opponents firepower. Even if they do set up on the back table edge their opponent will almost certainly be in weapons range by the end of turn 2 (can't use APTE! and launch fighters). It also makes organizing your fleet so it is spread out to avoid e-mine splash, but will converge on a point easy.

My rule of thumb for Queens is that for every Queenship I take, I take 1-3 'bodyguards.' The bodyguards don't need to stay with the Queenship, just be there.
As for flight computers, non-Queenships may only use FC's if they are squadroned with a queenship.

 

[Triggy]

We're just starting to get to the point we were with 1st ed. where ISA and Minbari were generally winning most events (not all), and the Gaim are partway along that same path.

I have to agree with Ripple about the lack of weaknesses with the Gaim. Katadder is right that people need to readjust their radar but frankly, in games at home, I still haven't been able to beat the Gaim at all, no matter what I take or do. They just outrange me, kill my fighters and even in closer games, still win on Victory Points.

I don't think it's a problem that people can take lots of queens, I just think the Skirmish PL Queen is a little too good, along with the Stuteeka Carrier and Raid PL Assault Ship. Most of the rest is actually pretty fair IMO. In fact, the Stuteeka is so good, I don't see why any League fleet would ever leave dock without one. Back it up with some very difficult to kill Queens and you have a very tough fleet.

I think a bottom up review is necessary, not because the entire fleet is broken but because it is the best way to review such issues is to sit down, assess the good points and the bad points, what you want out of the fleet and how you can best achieve this.

 

[Ripple]

Responding to a few of Katadders points...

They can't crit true, and if you take mostly large ships you can withstand the hail, but we're back to that custom build problem. Most skirmish ships in the game explode on average rolls for the fleets folks have talked about building.

Yes they are vulnerable to crits... so are Drazi, ISA, Vree, Abbai (speed here), Drahk, Vorlons, Shadows, Minbari (trait loss of stealth)... and they are all vulnerable to other things as well.

They are tougher than most ship in their own pls, even against beam due to high damage/crew numbers. The hull 4 carrier still has interceptors and a damage/crew number equal to a ship a full pl higher.

Not being able to group is a big deal for many races with the vast majority of their firepower in the shorter range brackets. You also cannot squadron against them without give up a minimum of two targets.

Sure EA can get some use out of its fighters... they carry a good number and are good fighters. But turning a major offensive weapon into a frantic defense (better win initiative or I just jump other ships) is hardly a good use of fighters. Add in that most races can't drop many fighters at one go, the Gaim can protect the flights that will get in contact if they win initiative and will generally outnumber you so badly that even a +3 vs the +1 will be of limited value once the number stack up and you are still looking at a mostly useless item.

boarding - yup...if I have fighters on board and I didn't use them against the crewed missiles when I encounter you breeching pods I might be able to scramble enough to block if I didn't need another SA to even get a chance to do some damage.

I also think they can be beaten btw, just not by any fleet that would be taken to a random opponent tourney. Exactly the same as we saw with the Minbari and ISA... races that were also banned in some groups under their SFoS incarnations. If I wanted to play rock paper scissors I could go hit the school yard... I'm looking for a game that is playable without working out who's bringing what ahead of time. For me the work is in the surprise and figuring out of the fly how to fight what he sprang on me with what I have. If the points are at all right I should still have a chance, otherwise the pl system is meaningless and lets just chuck it and arrange fights with whatever we think is reasonable.

On speed - the Gaim Queen ships and the carrier are indeed slow, but they can face away and all power to engines in the second and after turns pretty well, which will prevent all but the longest range guns from getting in on them if set-up goes their way. The OTHER ships are not slow, but mid speed for their level mostly. In part depends on the scenario... most times by setting up on the back edge you start at least 36 inches apart... farther if the gaim win initiative or in some scenarios.

The crit weakness as I stated above is hardly unigue to the gaim, while most of their advantages are to some degree. While it is a weakness, it is one common to many races, and the game as a whole rather than this specific race. But I'll admit it is a weakness, and I didn't give them credit for it.

When the tourney list attempted to fix the issue with Centauri beam teams by changing the most obvious ship, the Sulust, they just created a new issue that had been hiding, the Prefect. Folks were insisting the that issue was in the ship rather than seeing it was in the idea of long range front arc beams that could be cafed freely on tough ships. It was an idea problem, a concept problem... fixing any one ship was not going to help fight the basic tactical problem that was limiting the game. Same here, the issues are in what you do with a fleet of turreted fighter throwing, photon bombing, breaching pod mugging ships that run away from you. As yet the best answer I've heard is take a few big beam long range ships and hope to kill a few queens quick and get off the table. That's a good indication you have problem race when the only good answer is not to fight.

Ripple

 

[inq101]

Yes they are vulnerable to crits... so are Drazi, ISA, Vree, Abbai (speed here), Drahk, Vorlons, Shadows, Minbari (trait loss of stealth)

Most of these races are very vulnerable to 1-2 crit results, mainly trait loss. Gaim are vulnerable to pretty much every result. AD loss, most weapons virtually useless. Speed reduced, generally slow anyway. Trait loss, I guess I could do without computers for a few turns, but everything else is vital. Weapon arc gone, whoops, only 1 arc. Soft results are troop loss and 1 weapon destroyed.

Speed wise, I tend to play on 4' by 6-8' boards and rarely find that my second line (carriers and queens) are still safe from fire by the end of turn 2 without a nice big planet on the board. OK, they can run away, but they can only do it sideways or they go off the board. You can tell where they'll be in 2-3 turns time and plan to intercept them.

I think I may not be seeing the fleet in the same way as others because I'm still pretty new to the game and tend to play against new people. We've not seen the game before the Gaim so could look at the new arrivals with fresh eyes. I didn't see some of the problems until they were pointed out here (e.g. I thought the flight computers only worked for crew loss/damage, not queen loss. Never even thought about a pure Skirmish PL Queen fleet).

Tom

 

[Frohike]

I have to agree that the Gaim are OTT. The fact that they manage to be OTT in several areas is rather confusing for me. Probably repeating here:

1. Fighters. No quams with numbers but with +1 dog fight and a fleet carrier does this not break the swarm ethic? Compared to other races +2 dog fight is better than a lot can manage or at least on par. Coupled with the sheer volume of fighters this is crazy as it makes any kind of fighter defence completely and utterly useless. A better score would have been 0 and -1.

2. Emines. Huge range and turrets. A complete no brainer situation for Gaim, regardless of where they are or direction they are facing they can keep pumping out Emines, the fact that they are AP made me laugh.

3. Defences. Interceptors and advanced AF. WHAT? The fluff points out that the Gaim recently upped their tech level on ships but indicates a rather low level of tech. See points 1 and 2, why do they need AAF???? Dont have any particular grumble with interceptors other than the general feeling fluff wise that they shouldnt have them, game wise its ok.

4. Queens and the flight computer. The Queen is supposed to be rare or rather at least a protected asset, why am I able to choose an entire fleet of queen ships. That is just silly/lazy. Once the queens are killed the fleet is supposed to suffer, initiative wise they do but the flight computers seem to save them from the CQ loss. I can picture it now on the bridge of a gaim vessel - 'blast, our last queen has been killed, lets turn on our flight computer for some soothing music to help us grieve'. Does no one else think this particular combination is just stupid - they just countered an inbuilt weakness - why????

5. Boarding. Breaching pods. Enough said.........

All of these points seem to make for a no brainer game for the Gaim players.

Anyway, just my humble opinions. I agree in that they need a complete ground up overhaul.

 

[CT1221]

I would have to agree that the Gaim seem to have no weakness. I am the drakh player that Gray Dagon is refering to. My opponent used 4 Skrunnka Assault ships and I think the raid level queen ship. I can't remember my exact list but what actually destroyed my fleet was the breaching pods. In one turn he had 21 troops board my ships. In one turn he had 6 troops on my Ma'cu carrier, at this point unopposed, and get 5 critical hits pretty much taking it out of the game. In the first turn of his troops being unopposed he took out about 3 raid points from a 5 raid game. The only time the fighters even hurt my ships was one single fighter stand in suicide bomber mode attacked my fresh patrol cruiser and destroyed it on its own.

Overall I feel that the Gaim fleet seems to have no weakness and the power of their breaching pods is a little unbalanced. I also admit that the fighters are not deadly against all races except on a lucky critical :lol: .

 

[Ripple]

Drazi and Whitestars are both very dependent on single arc, can't afford to lose traits (dodge/AA) or AD (beams are small, drazi do often have good twl guns though). Abbai can't lose speed, can't... they have range 8 for most of their firepower, lose speed and you might as well lose you guns, can't lose shield or your done. So that's about half the tables.

Gaim... what traits can they lose that matter...
flight computer - only really comes up if they have no queen... so who cares.
AAF - they have emines and huge fighter swarms... who cares.
interceptors - okay, depending on your opponent this does suck. Worse than losing stealth dodge or AA (or a mix) for those that have them...nope.
Carrier - okay, now this does suck for them to lose... especially early. but post turn 3... just more padding.
Jump Point - eh... table edges are easier to get off and you should be glued to one the whole game.
Fleet carrier - Also bad, as the recoveries are nice.

So just not seeing you point here inq101. Your not more vulnerable in the gaim than anyone else, at least not to trait loss.

As to the fresh eyes comments, I think you may also be suffering from lack of experience in learning how to get the most out of your ships. Whitestar fleets and Minbari fleets also have this curve. If used in a straight brute force style they seem fine to maybe a tad weak, once you learn to dance they are over the top, because there is no good answer in many race to what you can do when you dance. The gaim have the same issue. It's not how tough they are when they come out to fight, it's how tough are they when they start playing the edges and terrain and range bands, when they use the swarm right and keep the breeching pod waves in the way.

Ripple

 

[inq101]

What I'm trying to say is virtually any crit, not just trait loss is a significant loss to the ships functionality. Whereas a Whitestar can normally opperate for a few turns if it's lost 4" of movement or one of its traits the Gaim ship is virtualy immobile, loses a significant ammount of firepower or has lost a vital trait. Something like 80% of the results on the crit table is somthing important (visiting family, so can't check my books) while most other races are especially vulnerable to specific results.

 

[Methos5000]

As for flight computers, non-Queenships may only use FC's if they are squadroned with a queenship.

Just out of curiosity, is this a house rule your group uses? I don't see this printed anywhere.

 

[Ripple]

I understand what your saying inq101, and I don't want to pester. I just disagree.

The only thing I see on the Gaim that they are more vulnerable to than others is the -1 AD thing. Even here it feels very similar for a lot of ships, but is noticeable in its effects over other races.

Movement, traits and damage/crew I think your very close others. Losing movement hurts, but less so than for most as you don't need to move to target, and no one wants to charge to board you due to the wall of breeching pods you can throw up.

Traits we covered above.

Damage/Crew your no more vulnerable than most.

I know I can be a pain harping on things, but I see a lot of times folks eager to talk about their perceived weaknesses without really looking across the board at the other races. We had this when the whitestar was 3+ dodge, folks went on and on about it was vulnerable to crew loss, and arc loss, and AD loss... and it was, but not really more so than many. Add in how unlikely it was to be critted and the ship was too good. Not on it's own, but in relation to other ships. Similar thing happened with the Prefect/Sulust debates... they had no rear guns, only one good arc.... but they were clearly over the top for a lot of folks.

ripple

 

[inq101]

Methos. It's a house rule (one of many) that I've playtested and found works in the spirit of the rules.

Ripple. I guess we'll just have to disagree. I've always found that any crit means that one ship can't do what I want it to. Maybe I'm just unlucky.

 

[Methos5000]

What other house rules do you use for the Gaim? If you have many as indicated that could go a long way in explaining your successes and losses with them, have you tried playing them just as they are in the book? If so how was your successes and losses?