Methos5000
Mongoose
Ah I see I misread that I though you were talking about the Blockade Run.
Gaim-simple solution to reballance
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Gray Dagon said:
Is it only Vree you have played against them ? How have other fleets fared against them - especially interested in how any Centauri did as thats what I play in the main............
Do you think you could beet them in a straight VP fight?
Do you have to tailor your fleet to fight the Gaim or can you use a off the rack fleet..................
thanks
I think there are elements of the Gaim fleet that are more out of allignment than others. Most of the problems are seen in the fighter-heavy ships. Even if you just reduced the fighter counts by 1/3 (including the paid-for wings and the Carrier values) then you'd see a tougher fleet to win with but also you'd see enemy fleets that are fighter-heavy with a chance against the Gaim.
No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
The thing i don't like about giam is that they are tough as hell. I think they need to be dropped down a bit.
The tough as hell part is deliberate (although maybe a little too tough). One thing that irks me is the flight computers on everything negating one main weakness of the fleet. The high-tech of some of the League races seems a little like "Codex Creep" to me where even if the balance is right, newer races get more gadgets to try and make them feel different.
Personally either reducing fighter numbers or dropping their dogfight score by one and losing precise when they hit would be my "solution" as to me, this is where the main issue with the fleet lies.
Personally either reducing fighter numbers or dropping their dogfight score by one and losing precise when they hit would be my "solution" as to me, this is where the main issue with the fleet lies.
I tend to agree that with the new additions they are throwing more things in that just don't need to be there. High tech should bring a new item or two, but not adding to something you've already got. They had good fighters and e-mines, they hardly need fighter defense at all, why would they develop superior AF.
The dynamic squadrons and breeching pods waves were over the top.
The flight computer just didn't make any sense at all.
My question for the guy who was beating them above is did he use his breeching pods well, as I see no comments on captures.
You flew Vree against him, a race with great anti-fighter capability of its own, how much of a part did this play?
You won a high end blockade, which frankly is almost unavoidable.
You won a flee to the jump gate by getting the hard roll on the first try, against a fleet that needs a turn or two to spool up to full effect. Again, a bit of luck and you should expect to win.
Ann you won annihalation with really big point values... this one actually addresses my concerns, but I do need to know a bit more about it.
Were you both able to field the full 5 points, was there terrain and did dice favor one or the other. I recently beat an Early EA fleet in Space Superiority with my Abbai, but it was clearly about the fact that his one heavy laser missed completely on its first four attempts and that I had bought down to more ships than he had, which gave me the edge at the end, a very very thin edge. It did not mean the Bimith I took was up to snuff... or that my kotha were worth their cost, despite the fact that they did some damage.
Just wondering...
Ripple
The dynamic squadrons and breeching pods waves were over the top.
The flight computer just didn't make any sense at all.
My question for the guy who was beating them above is did he use his breeching pods well, as I see no comments on captures.
You flew Vree against him, a race with great anti-fighter capability of its own, how much of a part did this play?
You won a high end blockade, which frankly is almost unavoidable.
You won a flee to the jump gate by getting the hard roll on the first try, against a fleet that needs a turn or two to spool up to full effect. Again, a bit of luck and you should expect to win.
Ann you won annihalation with really big point values... this one actually addresses my concerns, but I do need to know a bit more about it.
Were you both able to field the full 5 points, was there terrain and did dice favor one or the other. I recently beat an Early EA fleet in Space Superiority with my Abbai, but it was clearly about the fact that his one heavy laser missed completely on its first four attempts and that I had bought down to more ships than he had, which gave me the edge at the end, a very very thin edge. It did not mean the Bimith I took was up to snuff... or that my kotha were worth their cost, despite the fact that they did some damage.
Just wondering...
Ripple
Iain McGhee
Mongoose
I'd suggest that the Flight Computers are really a function of the Gaim's "hive mind" rather than technology (which makes it a little odd that it can be lost like other traits, admittedly) and the Advanced Anti-Fighter is down to them having, perhaps, mini-energy mines or small gatling lasers for close defence. Whether those traits are a bit excessive for them or not is another thing entirely. I've never played against (or with) them yet, so no opinion on how balanced they are. Although from their stats I'd expect that races with Precise weapons (esp. beams) would do well as the Gaim look to be particularly vulnerable to AD reduction and random arc crits.
Iain McGhee said:
you pretty much got it there, they very susceptable to beams and crits. lose an arc and thats all weapons gone on anything but assault ship. couple of -1AD crits and thats all weapons gone.
dont see why people are complaining about their Adv anti fighter as has been said they wont get to use it so it has no effect anyway really.
The AAF is worth less on a Gaim ship than elsewhere as it's unlikely to be used unless you're facing another Gaim fleet.
'Hive mind' flight computers could be stunned out of use by a hit.
Dynamic squadrons is too good, but also very in character for the race. Perhaps it should have CQ check to pull it off, or restrictions on what the ships can do while trying to do it (only fire half the weapon systems, launch no fighters as the C&C is re-routed).
Breaching pods is a theme for the Gaim fleet but I don't think they should be usable with the assault drone rules as it does make them too good (as the drones are too far away from their hive-mind they are less coordinated).
Reducing fighters by 1/3. Defenatly NOT. Gaim ships are underarmed (except the Shuuka) and don't have secondary weapons. Gaim fighters act as a secondary weapon system that depletes itself. Once they are used they are GONE. No other fleet has secondary weapons that don't work twice (Narn e-mines are different) or that are so easy to get rid of.
'Hive mind' flight computers could be stunned out of use by a hit.
Dynamic squadrons is too good, but also very in character for the race. Perhaps it should have CQ check to pull it off, or restrictions on what the ships can do while trying to do it (only fire half the weapon systems, launch no fighters as the C&C is re-routed).
Breaching pods is a theme for the Gaim fleet but I don't think they should be usable with the assault drone rules as it does make them too good (as the drones are too far away from their hive-mind they are less coordinated).
Reducing fighters by 1/3. Defenatly NOT. Gaim ships are underarmed (except the Shuuka) and don't have secondary weapons. Gaim fighters act as a secondary weapon system that depletes itself. Once they are used they are GONE. No other fleet has secondary weapons that don't work twice (Narn e-mines are different) or that are so easy to get rid of.
dynamic squadrons could have the rule that a queen has to be in the squadron i guess.
agree with not reducing fighters as these are possibly even the Gaims primary weapon with photon bombs being the secondary as the fighters are almost the only weapon they have that can crit.
agree with not reducing fighters as these are possibly even the Gaims primary weapon with photon bombs being the secondary as the fighters are almost the only weapon they have that can crit.
Gray Dagon
Mongoose
Da Boss
you asked about using other fleets vs. the Gaim I've tried the Narn and lost, but it was the first time I used them with new rules.
the Gaim player in our group has beaten ISA, Drakh, Brakiri, and Centauri.
The Brakiri gave him the most trouble.
I didnt so much tailor my fleet as completely change my usual tactics vs. the Gaim. My usual tactic of slowly running the flanks and long range salvoes just didn't cut it. I switched to as many hull 5 and 6 ships as I could(hull 4 vs. AP EM is not fun) and barrelled right at him. This cuts down on his fighter horde and forces him to possibly hit his own ships with EM. Not very elegant but seems to be best option for my Flying China.
you asked about using other fleets vs. the Gaim I've tried the Narn and lost, but it was the first time I used them with new rules.
the Gaim player in our group has beaten ISA, Drakh, Brakiri, and Centauri.
The Brakiri gave him the most trouble.
I didnt so much tailor my fleet as completely change my usual tactics vs. the Gaim. My usual tactic of slowly running the flanks and long range salvoes just didn't cut it. I switched to as many hull 5 and 6 ships as I could(hull 4 vs. AP EM is not fun) and barrelled right at him. This cuts down on his fighter horde and forces him to possibly hit his own ships with EM. Not very elegant but seems to be best option for my Flying China.
Harry Lonsdale
Mongoose
Do you know what ships the Drakh had? They seem like they would give the Gaim a hard time.Gray Dagon said:
Gray Dagon
Mongoose
Ripple
No doubt the blockade was in my favor, he wants a rematch so he can try a different fleet comp, his first was all queens and slow. I had several breaks in the flee to the gate game most notably a gas giant that sucked me into range of the gate on turn 3 and a asteriod field that covered one flank, even so his 40" EM where pounding me all the way in. I mainly mentioned these games because I won and that the victory conditions were not wholely determined by who can kill the most.
In the 5 war campaign game yes we both got out the full pts.
Gaim - 8 Shuuka, 5 Skrunnka, 2 Stuteeka, 3 Shaakak, 1 Shrutaa and 1 Shrutaa w/Admiral
Vree - 1 Ztakk, 2 Xaak, 4 Xill, 1 Xonn, 2 Xorr, 6 Xeel, 2 Xixx, and 4 Ximm
The terrain affected him more than me, he had a planet and asteriod field in his deployment zone 1 feature on each flank so he set up pretty much in 2 lines abreast in the center. I had 1 asteriod field in my deployment zone just off center the last asteriod field was almost smack in the middle of the table, I setup on heavy on flanks and very light in center.
We did use the standard 6' x 4' table size. The dice were average with his beams choking alot on turn 3. His pods didn't come into play, the first 2 rounds he scrambled mostly fighters and used half for interceptor duty the rest converted and kamikazed at me, between my fighters and AF he got maybe 3-4 hits on my ships, he lost more fighters on escort duty and suiciding than I killed with AF or dogfighting 26 to 25. At the end of turn 3(and almost 6 1/2 hours) he'd lost 8 Shuukas and 2 crippled Skrunnkas, My losses were 1 Xonn 1 Ximm and a Xaak 3pts from crippled an paint damage to 5 other ships. We had a gentlemans agreement that when someone cried uncle we'd finish the turn and call the game. He called it after turn 3, 1 or 2 turns more would have been needed for his pods to hit me in heavy numbers.
I don't worry about the Gaim fighter and pods, but thats due to my high AF and zorth fighter with +3 dogfight, I do have big problems with Shuuka squadrons of 3-4 ships ie 24-32 AP EM that will cripple or kill any of my skirmish ships in one volley, and he always gets one or two volleys in before I can close, I've tried CBDAADG but that generally gives him one more volley before I can close the range, AAF works much better for me.
Any advice is welcome
No doubt the blockade was in my favor, he wants a rematch so he can try a different fleet comp, his first was all queens and slow. I had several breaks in the flee to the gate game most notably a gas giant that sucked me into range of the gate on turn 3 and a asteriod field that covered one flank, even so his 40" EM where pounding me all the way in. I mainly mentioned these games because I won and that the victory conditions were not wholely determined by who can kill the most.
In the 5 war campaign game yes we both got out the full pts.
Gaim - 8 Shuuka, 5 Skrunnka, 2 Stuteeka, 3 Shaakak, 1 Shrutaa and 1 Shrutaa w/Admiral
Vree - 1 Ztakk, 2 Xaak, 4 Xill, 1 Xonn, 2 Xorr, 6 Xeel, 2 Xixx, and 4 Ximm
The terrain affected him more than me, he had a planet and asteriod field in his deployment zone 1 feature on each flank so he set up pretty much in 2 lines abreast in the center. I had 1 asteriod field in my deployment zone just off center the last asteriod field was almost smack in the middle of the table, I setup on heavy on flanks and very light in center.
We did use the standard 6' x 4' table size. The dice were average with his beams choking alot on turn 3. His pods didn't come into play, the first 2 rounds he scrambled mostly fighters and used half for interceptor duty the rest converted and kamikazed at me, between my fighters and AF he got maybe 3-4 hits on my ships, he lost more fighters on escort duty and suiciding than I killed with AF or dogfighting 26 to 25. At the end of turn 3(and almost 6 1/2 hours) he'd lost 8 Shuukas and 2 crippled Skrunnkas, My losses were 1 Xonn 1 Ximm and a Xaak 3pts from crippled an paint damage to 5 other ships. We had a gentlemans agreement that when someone cried uncle we'd finish the turn and call the game. He called it after turn 3, 1 or 2 turns more would have been needed for his pods to hit me in heavy numbers.
I don't worry about the Gaim fighter and pods, but thats due to my high AF and zorth fighter with +3 dogfight, I do have big problems with Shuuka squadrons of 3-4 ships ie 24-32 AP EM that will cripple or kill any of my skirmish ships in one volley, and he always gets one or two volleys in before I can close, I've tried CBDAADG but that generally gives him one more volley before I can close the range, AAF works much better for me.
Any advice is welcome
Gray Dagon
Mongoose
Ripple
No doubt the blockade was in my favor, he wants a rematch so he can try a different fleet comp, his first was all queens and slow. I had several breaks in the flee to the gate game most notably a gas giant that sucked me into range of the gate on turn 3 and a asteriod field that covered one flank, even so his 40" EM where pounding me all the way in. I mainly mentioned these games because I won and that the victory conditions were not wholely determined by who can kill the most.
In the 5 war campaign game yes we both got out the full pts.
Gaim - 8 Shuuka, 5 Skrunnka, 2 Stuteeka, 3 Shaakak, 1 Shrutaa and 1 Shrutaa w/Admiral
Vree - 1 Ztakk, 2 Xaak, 4 Xill, 1 Xonn, 2 Xorr, 6 Xeel, 2 Xixx, and 4 Ximm
The terrain affected him more than me, he had a planet and asteriod field in his deployment zone 1 feature on each flank so he set up pretty much in 2 lines abreast in the center. I had 1 asteriod field in my deployment zone just off center the last asteriod field was almost smack in the middle of the table, I setup on heavy on flanks and very light in center.
We did use the standard 6' x 4' table size. The dice were average with his beams choking alot on turn 3. His pods didn't come into play, the first 2 rounds he scrambled mostly fighters and used half for interceptor duty the rest converted and kamikazed at me, between my fighters and AF he got maybe 3-4 hits on my ships, he lost more fighters on escort duty and suiciding than I killed with AF or dogfighting 26 to 25. At the end of turn 3(and almost 6 1/2 hours) he'd lost 8 Shuukas and 2 crippled Skrunnkas, My losses were 1 Xonn 1 Ximm and a Xaak 3pts from crippled an paint damage to 5 other ships. We had a gentlemans agreement that when someone cried uncle we'd finish the turn and call the game. He called it after turn 3, 1 or 2 turns more would have been needed for his pods to hit me in heavy numbers.
I don't worry about the Gaim fighter and pods, but thats due to my high AF and zorth fighter with +3 dogfight, I do have big problems with Shuuka squadrons of 3-4 ships ie 24-32 AP EM that will cripple or kill any of my skirmish ships in one volley, and he always gets one or two volleys in before I can close, I've tried CBDAADG but that generally gives him one more volley before I can close the range, AAF works much better for me.
Any advice is welcome
No doubt the blockade was in my favor, he wants a rematch so he can try a different fleet comp, his first was all queens and slow. I had several breaks in the flee to the gate game most notably a gas giant that sucked me into range of the gate on turn 3 and a asteriod field that covered one flank, even so his 40" EM where pounding me all the way in. I mainly mentioned these games because I won and that the victory conditions were not wholely determined by who can kill the most.
In the 5 war campaign game yes we both got out the full pts.
Gaim - 8 Shuuka, 5 Skrunnka, 2 Stuteeka, 3 Shaakak, 1 Shrutaa and 1 Shrutaa w/Admiral
Vree - 1 Ztakk, 2 Xaak, 4 Xill, 1 Xonn, 2 Xorr, 6 Xeel, 2 Xixx, and 4 Ximm
The terrain affected him more than me, he had a planet and asteriod field in his deployment zone 1 feature on each flank so he set up pretty much in 2 lines abreast in the center. I had 1 asteriod field in my deployment zone just off center the last asteriod field was almost smack in the middle of the table, I setup on heavy on flanks and very light in center.
We did use the standard 6' x 4' table size. The dice were average with his beams choking alot on turn 3. His pods didn't come into play, the first 2 rounds he scrambled mostly fighters and used half for interceptor duty the rest converted and kamikazed at me, between my fighters and AF he got maybe 3-4 hits on my ships, he lost more fighters on escort duty and suiciding than I killed with AF or dogfighting 26 to 25. At the end of turn 3(and almost 6 1/2 hours) he'd lost 8 Shuukas and 2 crippled Skrunnkas, My losses were 1 Xonn 1 Ximm and a Xaak 3pts from crippled an paint damage to 5 other ships. We had a gentlemans agreement that when someone cried uncle we'd finish the turn and call the game. He called it after turn 3, 1 or 2 turns more would have been needed for his pods to hit me in heavy numbers.
I don't worry about the Gaim fighter and pods, but thats due to my high AF and zorth fighter with +3 dogfight, I do have big problems with Shuuka squadrons of 3-4 ships ie 24-32 AP EM that will cripple or kill any of my skirmish ships in one volley, and he always gets one or two volleys in before I can close, I've tried CBDAADG but that generally gives him one more volley before I can close the range, AAF works much better for me.
Any advice is welcome
Gray Dagon
Mongoose
Harry Lonsdale
Sorry I don't know the ships used, from what heard it was 5pt raid game and the Giam fighters won almost by themselves.
Sorry I don't know the ships used, from what heard it was 5pt raid game and the Giam fighters won almost by themselves.
Yeah, was a bit surprised to hear there was any dogfighting. I would have thought the mines would have cleared the zorth out. Also surprised you carriered zorth as I never give up those 7 AD fighters (+1 vs +3 just isn't enough for me). But you knew who you were fighting so I can see it to some degree.
Interesting choice on his part to come from the center. Flank running generally works better for them, given the range and arcs.
Also interesting that he diverted that many fighters to interceptor duty. We find more than one or two fighters on any one ship is a penalty as losses start to stack up to fast. Your better off depleteing to the 6+ quickly and losing one for the turn.
Good to get an idea of how it went though... I tend to agree that AFF trumps CBD vs them. We experimented a bit with Intesify Defensive Fire against them, but if you have a good escort its a better option.
Thank you for the details... gives me a better feel.
Ripple
Interesting choice on his part to come from the center. Flank running generally works better for them, given the range and arcs.
Also interesting that he diverted that many fighters to interceptor duty. We find more than one or two fighters on any one ship is a penalty as losses start to stack up to fast. Your better off depleteing to the 6+ quickly and losing one for the turn.
Good to get an idea of how it went though... I tend to agree that AFF trumps CBD vs them. We experimented a bit with Intesify Defensive Fire against them, but if you have a good escort its a better option.
Thank you for the details... gives me a better feel.
Ripple
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