Gaim-simple solution to reballance

[Voronesh]

Dont forget the Stak is a patrol lvl ship and has Stealth 5+. That could keep the "fleet going for a bit. At least multiples of them, if someone would gbe that evil to leave the table.

Drakh should actually have a good time against Gaim, sure the turreted weapons are evil, but the GEG should cut his phhoton bombs down to nearly nothing and the individual crewed missiles will only work on crits. Just gotta keep their breaching pods at bay.
Drakh are the only race id give a good chance at beating game, without totally fitting the fleet just to fight them.

 

[Harry Lonsdale]

the fighters won't carry on alone to do damage, or has this been changed?

If fighters are treated as ships now, it looks like they would carry on even if their carrier withdraws.

 

[Enalut]

Correct me if I am wrong--but aren't Gaim E-Mines AP? Therefore they are a lot more powerful than this discussion had assumed, and the numbers thrown out earlier are falt wrong.

First point I haven’t played the Gaim yet—trying to set it up for the weekend—but at first glance, the Fleet doesn’t look bad, but the Shuuka looks completely broken

Each Shuuka (Q) (see below) that includes 8 E-mines each turn:
Against Hull 6: (needing 5+ to hit)= 2.67>3 hits=2.5 damage per turn per ship
Against Hull 5: (needing 4+ to Hit) 4.0 hits=3.33 damage per turn per ship
Against Hull 4: (needing 3+ to Hit) 5.33>5 hits=4.16 damage per turn per ship

This doesn’t sound that bad, but scale it and it gets monstrous—A 10 Shuuka fleet can do 25 points of damage per turn on average against a Hull 6 ship; 33 points against a Hull 5 ship (crippling—an Ashinta 33/38 points, or a Nova 33/36 points every turn); or 42 points to a Hull 4 ship.

Compare* the Skirmish Shuuka to the Raid Shaakak (Q) and Battle Shrutaa (Q) and the problem is revealed:

Shuuka Shaakak Shaakak
Hull 6 6 6
Damage 19 38 72
Interceptors2 5 5

Craft:
Shuuka: Klikkita (6)Breaching Pod (4)$
Shaakak Klikkita (12)Breaching Pod (2)
Shaakak : Klikkita (16)Breaching Pod (6)

Weapons:
Shuuka Photon Bomb 40 2 AP/EM Photon Bomb 40 2 AP/EM Photon Bomb 40 2 AP/EM Photon Bomb 40 2 AP/EM
Shuuka Photon Bomb 30! 4 AP/EM Photon Bomb 30! 4 AP/EM
Shaakak Photon Bomb 40 4 AP/EM Photon Bomb 40 4 AP/EM Photon Bomb 40 4 AP/EM

* Stats Taken from Burger’s Ship viewer, I don’t have access to my books at the moment.
$ Assuming this is not a misprint, and the skirmish ships should have twice as many breaching pods as the raid ship.
! Assuming this is a misprint and should read 40”, otherwise skirmish ships have a longer range than the raid ship.

<<Assuming that a 40” Turrent AP/EM weapon is appropriate and balanced on a skirmish ship>>

Why should the skirmish ship have as many AD as the raid lvl ship, and 2/3 the dice of a battle lvl ship? (see notes “$” “!” above). And in terms of Emines, having the AD in multiple weapon systems, hence more targets and better AA penetration is a large benefit that more than outweighs the risk of a –1AD crit. Moreover, why does the skirmish ship have twice as many breaching pods as the Raid ship.

The rest of the fleet seems to scale much better between levels for queen ships: 1 to 2 to 4 on damage tracks; 6 to 12 to 16 on fighters; and 2 to 5 to 5 on Int (and after 5 Int how much difference do those extra dice make?). But regarding weapons AD the scale breaks down: 8 to 8 to 12. It seems that the scale could be preserved at 4 (either in 1 weapon system or 2) to 8 to 12.

Given these scalling issues, why would anyone ever take the Raid Queen over the Skirmish queen: you get the same damage total and fighters spread over 2 ships and twice as many weapons AD and Braching pods for your points. In short, there is no reason not to take the skirmish ship over the raid.

The Gaim as a fleet don’t seem broken, but the Shuuka seems to be, much as the Armageddon Saggi was. However, this discrepancy is much more pronounced in this acse as the Shuuka, as a queen ship, is much more central to the Gaim fleet than the Saggi was to EA Early.

The remedies seem apparent, halve the Shuuka’s weapons (I would give it 2X 2AD 40” AP/EM) and reduce its breaching pods, 2 actually sounds reasonable. This would seemingly restore the balance of that 1 ship.

 

[Voronesh]

Yep. Youve hit the problem. ^^.

Actually Shuukas get you 4times!!!!! the number of breaching pods than raid lvl queens do.

The range is not a misprint. I would rate the 30" range on raid lvl queens one, but Matt has confirmed them as correct (like Drakh aft AF neutron lasers :S).

 

[inq101]

The Stak is horribly vulnerable. 6 hits and hull 4, I've never had one survive long enough to use its scout effectively. Stealth gives them a chance of surviving turn 1 but they are slow for their class and have no interceptors. Also, there's not much to use scout on with the Gaim fleet.

Enalut, your sums are correct but compare that to the damage 10 of pretty much any other skirmish ship can put out and 25 damage does not seem that impressive (even if the range is). I have been convinces that the Shuuka is broken when used as an entire fleet, but that is not what it should be doing. It can also bee killed easily (19 hits and 2 interceptors).

 

[Da Boss]

The Stak is horribly vulnerable. 6 hits and hull 4, I've never had one survive long enough to use its scout effectively. Stealth gives them a chance of surviving turn 1 but they are slow for their class and have no interceptors. Also, there's not much to use scout on with the Gaim fleet.

Enalut, your sums are correct but compare that to the damage 10 of pretty much any other skirmish ship can put out and 25 damage does not seem that impressive (even if the range is). I have been convinces that the Shuuka is broken when used as an entire fleet, but that is not what it should be doing. It can also bee killed easily (19 hits and 2 interceptors).

The Staik is prob much mroe use to allies than the Gaim - dirt cheap stealth 5 scous are useful for races that actually have to beat stealth.

sorry but hull 6 and 2 interceptors is NOT killed easily - have played Many games with the Maximus which is about the same stats and it does not die easily. Also it carries aux craft as well. I don't know if its broken but don't pretend is not extremley powerful.

 

[inq101]

Sorry, I should have added 'Compared to other Queen-ships...'
Even so, with the new beam rules it is pretty vulnerable.

 

[katadder]

you forget when saying how much damage the photon bombs do that you can remove 1/6th of all that damage due to bulkheads.

so you whole fleet does 21 damage to a hull 6 ship? wow, I know most fleets at 5 raid will do more than that back plus crits. and so on down the levels, its really not as bad as you think.

 

[Da Boss]

Sorry, I should have added 'Compared to other Queen-ships...'
Even so, with the new beam rules it is pretty vulnerable.

beams yes and no - have to hit still and as many people have said you miss as much as you hit big

 

[Voronesh]

you forget when saying how much damage the photon bombs do that you can remove 1/6th of all that damage due to bulkheads.

so you whole fleet does 21 damage to a hull 6 ship? wow, I know most fleets at 5 raid will do more than that back plus crits. and so on down the levels, its really not as bad as you think.

He already did that. But most 5 point raid fleets cant back it up with 60 fighters and 40 breaching pods. Bringing big ships against breaching pods is normally asking for boarding. No place to hide from that mass.


inq101:
The Stak was in idea, because stealth often means the enemy will ignore it, until its the only ship left, at which point it might be well hidden in some nice place behind lots of terrain. WS can reach it quickly, but most fleets would have a big problem.

Sure Shuukas have no huge damage output when compared to other skirmish ships, but other skirmish ships dont have 40" range. Most other skirmish ships also do not ignore dodge, ints, stealth and can hit multiple ships at once (a great swarm defence).
What is so vulnerable about 19 damage points, you get 2 Shuukas for a single Shaakak and that one only has 38 damage points. Sure it has more ints, but then again as you said yourself, beams dont care. 2 egg baskets instead of one, a way to defeat crit problems.
Plus beams can destroy a 38 damage point ship just as quickly as a 19 damage point ship, a WS beam doesnt seem that big, but when it rolls 10 hits, you lost a raid point instead of just a skirmish one. Another extra bonus point for Shuukas.


Overall the Shuuka problem isnt that it has 8AD of photon bombs, also its not the fact that it has 6 fighter flight neither the fact it has 4 breaching pods. Its the combination.

Why upgrade to a Shaakak raid queen? You get NOTHING for doing so. No extra survivability, no extra guns, no extra fighters, and actually less breaching pods. Yes i know it has half damage and less AF and int dice, but you present 2 targets instead of one, which is generally a good idea unless the enemy has emines.

 

[Skipper]

Edit: Sorry, double post

 

[Skipper]

The weapon superiority from the shuuka queen is that it will generally get one (sometimes 2-3 depending on speed) free rounds of fire before the opposing fleet can close enough to cause damage back. That 40" (43" with the blast radius) range is difficult to overcome. Two free rounds of fire from a fleet of Shuuka should kill 1-2 shipos and possible weaken multiple others on the way in. Then the fighter swarms and boarding bods can pick through the remains much easier.

I think many of the Advanced fleets with speed. long range weapons, and durability can do ok, but the Vree, Abbai, Brakiri, Early Earth, maybe middle earth, Psicorps, and even shadow & vorlon will have a tough row to hoe. Well, maybe not Vorlon.

It appears that the Gaim can field a single ship type at all levels (the Shuuka) and give all the fleets a massive bloody nose. Its the ultimate no thinking fleet. With the minimal effort, you could play competitively against almost all comers from beginners to advanced players. Sure you'll lose some games, but the Gaim are very forgiving. Hull 6 skirmish that have interceptors (2), decent damage (19), great fighter screen which doubles as a secondary weapon system, and can attempt to keep the range open to minimize incoming fire, not to mention the ability to flee the board and minimize VP loss just by hugging the edge and moving off when the time is right.

Yes, I think I can beat them with many "tailored" fleets, but its never guaranteed and in a campaign, their strengths just seem to be multiplied. They have no fear of expending all their fighters. However, they still need to replace troops used in boarding pods (something we have forgotten in our campaign and which might reduce their campaign effectiveness). Conserving there ships by easily retreating when they start taking threatening damage.

I usually have the reputation locally of taking poor fleets and doing well with them against very tough opponents. When some claims a fleet is broken I generally play against it and beat it, When they claim a fleet can't win, I take that fleet and then find a way to get some wins. But against the Gaim, I'm sure I can still get a few wins, but it won't be through much skill, it'll be through shear luck or poor playing by my opponent. I really don't see myself enjoying games against them. In fact, our campaign may completely collapse due to their "fun draining" ability.

I'm not advocating scrapping the fleet. Not advocating making sweeping changes. I don't even mind them being one of the tough eggs that are difficult to beat (I love a good challenge). What I'd like to see is as few changes as possible to make them fun to play against.

Suggestions that sound good include (select only one or maybe two)
1. Reducing the range of photon mines to 30" This allows other fleets to have maybe one turn to maneuver before getting hit.
2. Change the Turret e-mines to Forward (If 1/2 the photon bombs were converted to front arc, the other half could still be turret) It would force the little buggers to have to close on the enemy to fire full strength and would prevent them from escaping once they've dumped all fighters and pods and then turning off the board.
3. Drop the reroll for boarding attacks. They have enough advatages with boarding already with numbers. They shouldn't need this other advantage.

OK, I've rambled way to long. but I'm not convinced the Gaim need sweeping changes, just a minor tweek or two to get the "fun" balance back. I actually thing number 2) above might do the trick.

 

[katadder]

why upgrade to raid level queens?
i will tell you its for campaign more than anything. a raid queen getting upgrades gets more for its return on weapons or percentages of damage etc.
in the tourney we were allowed an upgrade per battle on our ships. i had a raid queen and it ended up with 8AD of SAP SL DD photon bombs one of which had 45" range. compared to if had been a skirmish queen i would have had only 4AD of the above.

as hiff has pointed out numerous times this is not only about tourneys, its one off games, campaigns and anything else you can think of.

 

[Voronesh]

Cant say much in this regard. But slow loading hurts. Sure you get a better upgrade, but that SAP DD emine is still only 8AD every other turn. I get 32 AD at AP over 2 turns. A raid queen needs an upgrade to come even.


You could use that argument to make bad armageddon ships seem valid (under armageddon rules ^^). BTW do the Narn still have the free refit roll on their ships? Would be funny to turn a G'Quan into a G'Quonth for free ^^.

 

[katadder]

well you can get just DD e-mines but the SAP actually helps when queens fight each other due to them both being hull 6.

 

[Da Boss]

why upgrade to raid level queens?
i will tell you its for campaign more than anything. a raid queen getting upgrades gets more for its return on weapons or percentages of damage etc.
in the tourney we were allowed an upgrade per battle on our ships. i had a raid queen and it ended up with 8AD of SAP SL DD photon bombs one of which had 45" range. compared to if had been a skirmish queen i would have had only 4AD of the above.

as hiff has pointed out numerous times this is not only about tourneys, its one off games, campaigns and anything else you can think of.

true but the Tourni was a very unusual one - if it was a straight campaign mutiple ships would be getting the upgrades?

 

[katadder]

true, but when comes to just one upgrade the raid queen can win out there.

 

[DrSeltsam]

BTW do the Narn still have the free refit roll on their ships? Would be funny to turn a G'Quan into a G'Quonth for free ^^.

Nope - now the refit makes sense
You get 3 free rolls on the refit table.

Why should i want to change a ship to a variant that i have not already bought first time and loose all the refits ? :wink:

 

[Voronesh]

Actually your firepower is still worse.

I wont calc bulkheads since they both reduce firepower nearly the same ^^ I know DD does 1 point intsead of nothing, but it wont matter.
SAP 8AD DD,SL: 4 dice hit, thats 8 damage
16 AD: 5 and a third dice hit. More than 4 damage. second turn i get again that number.


Sad about the free change of ships. That refit was fun because a battle lvl G'Quan could be turned into a weak war lvl G'Quonth. Doesnt sound big, but you kinda saved half the points for it. If you rolled it early.

 

[H]

Sad about the free change of ships. That refit was fun because a battle lvl G'Quan could be turned into a weak war lvl G'Quonth. Doesnt sound big, but you kinda saved half the points for it. If you rolled it early.

conversely though, you could have a G'Quan with AJP, long range weapons, +1 versus stealth for example, and loose it all on a roll of 12, as you end up with a basic G'Lan, G'Tal or G'Quonth" now you would have a g'quan with those things, and also gain forward arc beam, +1 speed, and um, something else lol. I forget my re-fits at present!