Gaim-simple solution to reballance
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2nd_ed_hiffano said:
And you doing the same invalidates mine? This thread was actually pretty civilized until you came barging in, stating a single batrep for reference to Gaim or actually Shuukas being ok. Dunno.....
Im just bad at not responding sometimes. (And overreacting.... :S)
actually, it's more tnaevas argument than yours. many of the things you have credited me with were burger ;-) he knows more than me on the game.. and Gaim... and Maths....
yes i called people whiny bitches, as that is what it is seriously coming across as, the fact you have now stated that you don't play ISA makes your involvement fuzzy and different. And more constuctively, you haven't rehashed the same argument as much as certain other people.
I have posted above as to my view on a WS fleet for tournies, now i haven't done it completely nor reviewed every and all opinions, but i have made a proposal, even though i feel it is irrelevant to an overall fantastic game, that is NOT just a tourney game. that was, and is my key issue. For those people who feel every level most be balanced, i would suggest always playing EA versus EA with the same fleet lists, i think that approach would be a bit boring though
yes i called people whiny bitches, as that is what it is seriously coming across as, the fact you have now stated that you don't play ISA makes your involvement fuzzy and different. And more constuctively, you haven't rehashed the same argument as much as certain other people.
I have posted above as to my view on a WS fleet for tournies, now i haven't done it completely nor reviewed every and all opinions, but i have made a proposal, even though i feel it is irrelevant to an overall fantastic game, that is NOT just a tourney game. that was, and is my key issue. For those people who feel every level most be balanced, i would suggest always playing EA versus EA with the same fleet lists, i think that approach would be a bit boring though
Well i guess we gotta chalk it up to a somehwat complicated forum thread structure.......
I apologize for going out of my skin like that, happens a bit too often to me. :S :S.
Like using nukes on people in the Starcraft PCgame who destroyed a lonely group of marines..... ^^.
My involvement with the Gaim and mostly the Shuuka is purely academical, if you can call it that. I simply think that this special ship got a little bit too good.....The full Gaim fleet i never truly consider as all winning. The battle queen and especially the raid gunship seem really well balanced.
Please consider that i only use Shuukas for reference, and when using the word Gaim i mean a fleet of them, nothing else.
That should still not change too much. Actually it would reduce the are a WS could be in. I simply rate WS being wherever they want to be first turn. A planet will give them that advantage. But the tactic of boosting through a Gaim ship cloud (i just call it that because it sounds nice) would be stopped by the table edge. Gaim have the absolute advantage in the range department there. WS could only turn at 1/4 full speed and fly away, not something that id rate as useful, unless itd get you behind said planet for regenerating.
BTW is Gaim breaching pod speed correct at 8"? Burger your ship viewer rates it at that, just asking if im going by the right numbers?
I apologize for going out of my skin like that, happens a bit too often to me. :S :S.
Like using nukes on people in the Starcraft PCgame who destroyed a lonely group of marines..... ^^.
My involvement with the Gaim and mostly the Shuuka is purely academical, if you can call it that. I simply think that this special ship got a little bit too good.....The full Gaim fleet i never truly consider as all winning. The battle queen and especially the raid gunship seem really well balanced.
Burger said:
Please consider that i only use Shuukas for reference, and when using the word Gaim i mean a fleet of them, nothing else.
That should still not change too much. Actually it would reduce the are a WS could be in. I simply rate WS being wherever they want to be first turn. A planet will give them that advantage. But the tactic of boosting through a Gaim ship cloud (i just call it that because it sounds nice) would be stopped by the table edge. Gaim have the absolute advantage in the range department there. WS could only turn at 1/4 full speed and fly away, not something that id rate as useful, unless itd get you behind said planet for regenerating.
BTW is Gaim breaching pod speed correct at 8"? Burger your ship viewer rates it at that, just asking if im going by the right numbers?
Court Jester
Mongoose
inq101 said:
They're broken?
:wink:
Court Jester said:
MhaaaHaaaahaaaa! I love this answer.
We have a Gaim player in our campaign and it has really stired up a bunch of controversy. Yes they are easier to plan for, but already two players have change campaign fleets so they can survive repeated counters with Gaim. And the campaign fleets are being built to counter them and not each other. This seems to indicate that the Gaim are not just tough in "tournamant" games but also in games when you can plan for them.
Are they unbeatable, absolutely not. Do they unbalance our campaign. They definitely do. The Shuka is deployed running along the table edge. They dish out a ton of damage and when they start getting a little damage they start flying off the table edge leaving behind fighters, breaching pods, and manned torpedoes. This doesn't hurt the fleet at all as they are regenerated each turn. By the time the last one exits, they have already done unrepairable damage to the opposing fleet which they have difficulty repairing. So the Gaim keep getting better, everyone else degrades, and still they hasn't been a stand up fight between the Gaim and everyone else.
So what tactic should be used against this tactic? Battles that put them at a disadvantage are just refused so they never get caught with their pants down.
Other than taking this player out behind the woodshed and applying appropriate force, what else can be done?
Knight of ne
Mongoose
In my opinion sheer brut force should work in stand alone games, take big ships able to dish out a ton of firepower and take a fair bit in return. If his fighters are proving problematic using any wepaon that is out of range may be a good idea. Your own fighters should engage as many of there fighters as possible and just keep your fleet close enough for your ships to protect each other but still are far enough apart to reduce energy mine damage. Gaim ships dont have a ton of secondarys so keeping a ship or two in hyperspace so you can jump out on their rear arcs. Narn and earth are pretty good to use as they can use the tactics given and because they have a fair few ships that can take a hell of a beating and survive (Omega's and G'quans).
Hopefully that helps for someone if not your specific problem.
Knight of ne
Hopefully that helps for someone if not your specific problem.
Knight of ne
Thanks for the post, additional information is always welcome (especially if its support ones own position ).
Shuukas are a serious problem, is your campaign player using them ALOT, or is he also using the other ships, which i generally find alot more balanced in comparison?
Knights:
Gaim dont have a rear arc, so no jumping in there, which leads directly to BPs. Breaching pods can make short work with most big ships, unless its fast or unboardable. And 6" is quite a bit of space.... :S
).Shuukas are a serious problem, is your campaign player using them ALOT, or is he also using the other ships, which i generally find alot more balanced in comparison?
Knights:
Gaim dont have a rear arc, so no jumping in there, which leads directly to BPs. Breaching pods can make short work with most big ships, unless its fast or unboardable. And 6" is quite a bit of space.... :S
I would suggest picking a ship and firing everything you have at it. With a little luck you'll destroy it in a single round of firing, and then you can retreat before damage stacks up on your own ships. Higher priority ships might be better for this, since they can soak more damage and tend to have longer range
stryve said:
Unfortunately, to get this kind of firepower on them requires moving towrads them in most situations so you would either have to open a gate andd give them a round of free shooting and missiling, or turn around (not easy as most ships with this kind of firepower have fewer turns, are lumbering, and don't have great speed.
As to the type of ship, Shukas are the dominant one, but others have seen the table. As I've said, I'm pretty sure I can beat them in individual games, but doing so would probably cost me the campaign as winning the scenario would damage my fleet more than his. However, Friday I plan on trying it out again.
We still need a lot more games to claim "they are broken", but I will say they are a major concern and have change the way everyone plans their fleets. There is even talk (started by myself) of alternating turns where we refuse the battle when he attacks for a turn or two giving up ground, and then everyone jumping him at once on the following turn forcing him to allocate his points thinnly. But that just reeks. I mean, if we have to resort to team attacking him on multiple strategic targets in order to win against him, then its a sign that there is a problem.
Knight of ne
Mongoose
Skipper, what fleet do you play? If you tell us what fleets are been used it woould help a great deal.
Voronesh- damn i forgot about gaim breaching pods and there stupid 8'' speed.
Knight of ne
Voronesh- damn i forgot about gaim breaching pods and there stupid 8'' speed.
Knight of ne
hang on, have I misunderstood? if his Shuukas all leave the table leaving only fighters and boarding pods, doesn't he automatically loose that battle? and the fighters won't carry on alone to do damage, or has this been changed? Fleet carrier does make them tougher in campaigns, but if he keeps retreating, he'll loose all his targets?!
as for boarding pods, I guess they doak up your secondary fire, at least most secondary is as far as their move meaning they should always take one round of fire!
as for boarding pods, I guess they doak up your secondary fire, at least most secondary is as far as their move meaning they should always take one round of fire!
2nd_ed_hiffano said:
hmm it would depend on the scenario - if can capture ships - he will get a load of VP - maybe enough to cancel out that lost from retreating ships? I don't think many scenarios say you loose if you have no more ships - but have a turn length. With the Gaim getting complete replacements for their drones every turn they can prob even afford to loose targets as prob not actually having to spend much rr if any in reparing and the 1 Xp for turning up may cover that? You only get 1/4 vic points for withdraw and 5 vp for holding the table - so this is a viable if nasty tactic?
One player changed from Minbari to Drahk, I've changed from Abbai to Minbari (I think I have an angle), we have a shadow player and a psicorp player. The last two are newbies (thats why I went Abbai to start with, I figured I'd be the punching bag to let them cut their teeth) and have limited experience.
No, leaving the field of battle in waves keeps the fleet alive and working. As you slowly attempt to work up his line, injured ships depart and the good ones remain. Its still a loosing proposition in the long run.
As Abbai I was too slow and short ranged to do much damage.
No, leaving the field of battle in waves keeps the fleet alive and working. As you slowly attempt to work up his line, injured ships depart and the good ones remain. Its still a loosing proposition in the long run.
As Abbai I was too slow and short ranged to do much damage.
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