Gaim-simple solution to reballance

[H]

May i say, very few fleets can beat the isa on blockade run, well heck, the isa are broken as well, better re-stat them!

In fact a Blue Star with the enhanced gravitic drive upgrade is unbeatable!

Five point raid is the standard game for 99% of players out there.

THIS is where the problem lies! Change it to 1pt Armageddon and all is fixed for all fleets

I did try to start a thread about changing tournament play and asking for ideas, about 5 people replied, seems people would rather whine to get a hole fleet changed, than to just change a game format.
Question though, if a game is stated as one FAP armageddon, how does the ISA allies rule work? do you then split their list so they get 2FAP at raid or some sch?

 

[tneva82]

ACTA is NOT just a tourney game,

Tourney game or not for game to be balanced fleets must be able to defeat other fleets without tailoring themselves against each other. That's fact. If fleet A can't beat fleet B with tactics but has to tailor fleet selection specifically against it then game needs changing. Another fact.

So again: Without tailoring your fleet against Gaim how you would beat them with standard ISA you would take against anybody? 3 pts war, 8 pts skirmish, whatever. Tell your TACTICS that allow your ISA fleet to defeat gaim. Forget the fleet selection process. That´s not important. Tell us the tactics.

Why you dodged the request? Can't think any other method to beat Gaim than to tailor your fleet against them?

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I don't agree. The 1 armageddon split favours large ships, so races with poor choices at higher levels, like Drazi, don't do well. Something like 2 war or 3 battle might be better.

 

[Burger]

Question though, if a game is stated as one FAP armageddon, how does the ISA allies rule work? do you then split their list so they get 2FAP at raid or some sch?

That is a very good question
Yes I'd say that allies are given at Raid level. So ISA could have 1 Raid point's worth of allies, Psi Corps can have 2, etc. Of course that comes out of the 1 Armageddon point's ships, it isn't in addition. For example: WS Carrier, WS Gunship, 1 WS, 1 Nova. Or 7 White Stars, 1 Warbird and 2 Sunhawks.

 

[Burger]

I don't agree. The 1 armageddon split favours large ships, so races with poor choices at higher levels, like Drazi, don't do well. Something like 2 war or 3 battle might be better.

That is true, and it is a bit of a problem. However you can still take a swarm of skirmish ships if you like. 1 Armageddon point buys you 12.
It is the best solution we've found to balancing out the fact that swarm fleets are so overpowered, such as Ka'Toc bat squads, and people not taking the larger iconic ships due to them being critted out of the game.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

It's an imperfect system.

 

[H]

ACTA is NOT just a tourney game,

Tourney game or not for game to be balanced fleets must be able to defeat other fleets without tailoring themselves against each other. That's fact. If fleet A can't beat fleet B with tactics but has to tailor fleet selection specifically against it then game needs changing. Another fact.

So again: Without tailoring your fleet against Gaim how you would beat them with standard ISA you would take against anybody? 3 pts war, 8 pts skirmish, whatever. Tell your TACTICS that allow your ISA fleet to defeat gaim. Forget the fleet selection process. That´s not important. Tell us the tactics.

Why you dodged the request? Can't think any other method to beat Gaim than to tailor your fleet against them?

i "dodged" the request as it is a moot point. in a campaign game, are you saying you don't taylor your fleet? will the Royal navy not taylor it's fleet for a specific objective? now obviously you are stating every fleet must be balanced against every other fleet at all priorities? I think you will find that ascertaition is crap as well

you see, you are trying to make me look stupid by debunking my tactics as an ISA fleet. I don't play ISA i hate them, I generally am begining to hate whinyass ISA players. I and most people i know don't play tourneys, we play campaign games, or one off games of varying sizes, somethign which is seemingly illeagal to do on this forum and something which means we must be the 5% from LDtD's assertation that don't play them.
are raiders a viable tourney fleet? how many have you seen? any fleet selection in any tourney can be undone depending on whom you play, likewise you can waltz through with your 5 Whitestars against the right opposition making the ISA look equally broken to any other race. i'm sure you will instead overlook this issue and continue to harangue me on my tactics against gaim, but heres a killer.... tactics change! amazingly they do, the gaim player could take a different selection of ships than anticipated, he might try to hare in to release his pods up close, he may sit back and try to mine me out of the game, oh my gosh, what will i do... hmm i'll adapt my tactics to face the actual situation. well feck me, what a brain i must have to come up with that piece of pie

 

[katadder]

And to top it off. The larger the game gets, the.....ughh nothing changes for ISA, until you get Armageddon. 1 War points gets me 8 Shuukas. Take a VCD PLEASE. Youre begging to lose it to my breaching pods.

easy to kill them - average roll from its beam will kill a shuuka per turn. the rest of the vics guns can be turned on the whole 32 breaching pods you have once they come into secondary range.
ok the AA isnt much use against your e-mines but then you have to hit on 5+ and cant crit so i can guarantee my ship will be working at full power until crippled at least.
if any pods do get close, well turn before they hit i scramble 3 auroras and a t-bolt. then following turn intensify defensive fire.

to take down a ship like the vic you need crits, breaching pods are ok but they cannot stand upto main guns.

another thought for you talking about breaching pods - ok you move to range 8 ready for boarding next phase with whatever is left - the victory can APTE 20" right past them and into your backfield to go queen hunting.

 

[H]

And to top it off. The larger the game gets, the.....ughh nothing changes for ISA, until you get Armageddon. 1 War points gets me 8 Shuukas. Take a VCD PLEASE. Youre begging to lose it to my breaching pods.

easy to kill them - average roll from its beam will kill a shuuka per turn. the rest of the vics guns can be turned on the whole 32 breaching pods you have once they come into secondary range.
ok the AA isnt much use against your e-mines but then you have to hit on 5+ and cant crit so i can guarantee my ship will be working at full power until crippled at least.
if any pods do get close, well turn before they hit i scramble 3 auroras and a t-bolt. then following turn intensify defensive fire.

to take down a ship like the vic you need crits, breaching pods are ok but they cannot stand upto main guns.

another thought for you talking about breaching pods - ok you move to range 8 ready for boarding next phase with whatever is left - the victory can APTE 20" right past them and into your backfield to go queen hunting.

oop, your for it now, you have taken a contrary stance!

 

[Right Hand of God]

I didn't think that was allowed. Shouldn't Mods delete such heresy?

 

[katadder]

special rule of me, am allowed to be contrary to anything said and if its burger its almost compulsory to be so

 

[katadder]

are raiders a viable tourney fleet?

i'm working on raiders fleet for next tourney not the 2 day event but the next actual tourney i think i may use them and already know what i need.

 

[H]

are raiders a viable tourney fleet?

i'm working on raiders fleet for next tourney not the 2 day event but the next actual tourney i think i may use them and already know what i need.

oh, now look, your being contrary again! .. good luck with those raider boys

 

[Burger]

special rule of me, am allowed to be contrary to anything said and if its burger its almost compulsory to be so

Heh, actually I agree with you here, the viccy would stomp all over the 8 Shuukakkkkkhgsgshs or whatever the name is.

 

[tneva82]

what will i do... hmm i'll adapt my tactics to face the actual situation. well feck me, what a brain i must have to come up with that piece of pie

So once more you dodged the issue. Seems even you know only way for ISA to beat Gaim is by tailoring fleet against them which is wrong in so many levels it's not even funny.

So seems it's true. Gaim needs changes(or ISA but Gaim is the issue here, not ISA).

Or can ANYBODY offer viable tactics for ISA that doesn't require tailoring fleet and even better isn't dependant on hyperspace which is often denied.

No? Time to bring in changes...

 

[Burger]

Or can ANYBODY offer viable tactics for ISA that doesn't require tailoring fleet and even better isn't dependant on hyperspace which is often denied.

No? Time to bring in changes...

I've suggested 2 ways already.

1) Take Gaim allies yourself.
2) Change the tourney to 1pt Armageddon, which is fairer for ALL races not just ISA and Gaim (OK maybe all except Drazi but it's much less imperfect system than 5pt Raid is...)

 

[Voronesh]

Best way to defeat Gaim with ISA is by taking Gaim allies yourself
A couple of the skirmish level queens should mop up those enemy fighters nicely and be pretty survivable themselves. And do very nicely against all other comers, too... in fact Gaim are pretty much dream allies for ISA!

Taking something powerful to counter something powerful. Good idea, if both are the same its turns into a moot point though. How do you beat superman as a standard human? Simply take superman as an ally :S. Not really.

Hiff I have to say I totally agree with you 100%, however I think we are wasting our breath, some people just don't seem to be able to see past the 5 point raid tourny. FACT. Sorry couldn't resist.

And some people seem to have a short memory span. FACT. Sorry couldn't resist. Minbari were once so powerful at battle to war, theyd have goods odds on their sides, switch back to skirmish or patrol, a Minari player didnt even need to play the game, odds stacked against him. Fleets should be balanced at every lvl, or at least at those they have ships at.

And to top it off. The larger the game gets, the.....ughh nothing changes for ISA, until you get Armageddon. 1 War points gets me 8 Shuukas. Take a VCD PLEASE. Youre begging to lose it to my breaching pods. Take any WS, it wont get dodge, and AA is useless against 2 AD photon bombs.

Ignoring a problem doesnt solve it. And thats what your doing. And since when did tapletop games stop being competitive and fair? ACTA once had tourney rules just for that. 2e isnt a free letter to forget all that.

Because this fleet may excel against the ISA at a raid level tourney does not make them broke.

Well it does make the broken (at least the Shuuka) at tourneys. And that WILL turn ACTA into a nontourney game.

but acta ISN'T just a fracking tourney game, you seem oblivious to this fact, and seem determined that the gaim are broken because of one fleet they can beat on one scenario, you are being incredibly small minded and just coming across now as a whiny bitch. May i say, very few fleets can beat the isa on blockade run, well heck, the isa are broken as well, better re-stat them!

When did i say, that i play ISA, Actually i dont. And when did we start with namecalling? I was simply returning a favor. Now i dont want to take the high ground here, but i suggest you check your emotional state on how worked up over this or other things you actually are. Then reply and try to keep the immaturities out. I simply dont play campaigns, why because i dont have the time for it. Or rather not the motivation to take 3 years to finish a single campaign. Thats why i go for oneshots, oh and by the way i play Narn. So now you know something about me, now you have the right to judge me. Before? The "whiny ISA player" doesnt exist. Im not whiny, i could show you lots of Abbai fleets that do not stand a chance against Gaim, or some Vorlons out there too.

And to be exact, i could call you an ignorant tounrey hater, and campaignhuggin maniac. Now i guess that isnt actually true. And thats why i actually wont (even though i kinda just did, i know).

And a single VCD against Shuukas youre right. But then I would have 12 Shuukas? Hrmm thats 72 fighter bases and 40+ Breaching pods. Dunno how you would kill them with a single VCD. This is a simply example of swarm vs. big ship, basically something most people regard while looking at the ini system a rather bad thing. the photon bombs i would reserve for those pesky WS of any type (which are just target practice for them)


And Burger continueally stating that taking definietly powerful ships is ofc a good choice against powerful ships.

 

[inq101]

tneva, never played with or against ISA, so this is my 'common sense' tactics.

Whitestars should be in range in 1 TURN! DO SO! Your guns are MUCH better than anything the Gaim can use against you (turn 1, no missiles!).
Breaching pods are the biggest threat. They are speed 6, WS's are more than twice as fast and have 2 90* turns. If you play smart they wont be able to catch you. If they do intercept with the Nial the WS2 carries or use APTE to boost through them and out the other side.
Same goes for Crewed missiles. Actualy they won't be much of a huge as you can dodge them.
Wipe out the Queens, then the Assault ships (all round beams and boarding pods) and War Carrier (fleet carrier). Concentrate fire and you can probably kill 2-3 per turn no problem.
Use big ships (Victory or the Sharlin wannabe) as long range snipers.
Vs an all queenship fleet just kill what you can quickly and rely on VP's to win the game for you.

 

[H]

what will i do... hmm i'll adapt my tactics to face the actual situation. well feck me, what a brain i must have to come up with that piece of pie

So once more you dodged the issue. Seems even you know only way for ISA to beat Gaim is by tailoring fleet against them which is wrong in so many levels it's not even funny.

So seems it's true. Gaim needs changes(or ISA but Gaim is the issue here, not ISA).

Or can ANYBODY offer viable tactics for ISA that doesn't require tailoring fleet and even better isn't dependant on hyperspace which is often denied.

No? Time to bring in changes...

and you did exactly what i suggested you would, I've explained twice why i haven't told you my ISA tactics, but you choose to read what you will. Personally then, as ISA I would ALWAYS look to take a G'Karith as an Ally, the whitestars apparant main weakness isit's inability to avoid fighters. Also get in close, and fast, meaning to hit you, with his mines, he hits his own fighters and or breaching pods. Most gaim ships won't stand up well to the multiple beams you can fire at them, you have to take a beating to get the job done, so what. you can self scout all your pulsars and will be able to overload interceptors with ease, your speed means you can cover most of the table in two turns, no gaim can kill your entire fleet in two turns. Yes i may be looking at this from a very basic perspective, the killer being, I play narn, a very basic fleet. have you considered a nolotar for antifighter duties instead, similar damage to a whitestar, with interceptors, and antifighter, useful against most fleets again. no, i haven't tried this, i don't play ISA, I regularly get my EA spanked by EA because they can outmaneuvre me so comprehensively, oh no, my EA can't maneuvre as fast as a whitestar, the whitestar must be broken, although you don't wish to discuss that, you just want to whine incessantly that your ISA can't beat gaim

 

[Voronesh]

This should work against most fleets. Pick a standard tourney format (which SUCKS as we all know and 1 point armageddon would be alot better, yes Burger i know but thats the current system) and make that 10 Shuukas. Youll lose 2 WS first turn to photon bombs. Plus any lucky crits by fighters. 2nd turn youd need to boost into the middle of the fleet, simply because there is going to be a certain table edge, photon bombs at 40" allow such stupid tactics. Yes its evil, but its legal.


Also yes the ISA fleet is larger than WS, but its THE ICONIC ship of the show, so i often use it for reference. But all its strengths are being defeated by photon bombs in one go. Speed and maneuverability? 40" turreted guns. Dodge? Emine. Adaptive Armor? 2AD per shot.