Gaim-simple solution to reballance

[Voronesh]

The idea to reduce them to 30" is a start but not really a solution to the problem, most enemies have to close range, so range is nice, but not the full size of the problem. Basically how many fleets can fire at ranges further than 30" consistently :S.

They idea about autoexploding crewed missiles is nice ^^.

 

[Tzarevitch]

What about special photon bomb "e-mines" that allow enemy ships the chance to dodge? Just a thought.

I'd still like to see Klikkitaks' engines explode after one turn regardless of whether they make contact or not.

I don't like the dodge to e-mines because it carves out a strange rule exception and it doesn't solve the actual problem. The engines burning out is cool sounding but but it requires serious bookkeeping with as many flights as the Gaim can spit out.

Personally, I still think the simplest solution is to cut the range on the mines on the skirmish-level ship to 30". They still out-range most skirmish-level ships but the difference isn't as severe.

Tzarevitch

 

[katadder]

if they die after one round its no book keeping at all.
Gaim fighters - end phase convert so change models/counters.
run a turn, next end phase, any klikkitaks left get removed, now convert any more you want to. what book keeping is there?

 

[Triggy]

if they die after one round its no book keeping at all.
Gaim fighters - end phase convert so change models/counters.
run a turn, next end phase, any klikkitaks left get removed, now convert any more you want to. what book keeping is there?

Exactly - I can't see any bookkeeping either

 

[Voronesh]

Yep, no bookkeeping at all. Plus cutting the range doesnt solve the problem.

Youd have to cut the range to somewhat 20" or less. And that i dont know about. Many fleets would try to play the range game all of the sudden, but then races like Drazi and Abbai get left out of the race, and would still die horribly to Gaim.

 

[Right Hand of God]

Surely the Gaim need strengthening? It is accepted that they are great at Raid level but are poor at Battle War and Armageddon.

Ok Tourneys are generally at raid level, but that is a fault with the tourney not the fleet list. But if the Gaim are poor at any level higher than raid then surely they need to be improved. Or does the Almighty all pervading 5 point raid game come above everything else?

 

[Triggy]

Surely the Gaim need strengthening? It is accepted that they are great at Raid level but are poor at Battle War and Armageddon.

Ok Tourneys are generally at raid level, but that is a fault with the tourney not the fleet list. But if the Gaim are poor at any level higher than raid then surely they need to be improved. Or does the Almighty all pervading 5 point raid game come above everything else?

Sure they could do with a War PL ship but beyond that I just don't see how they're any weaker at all at other PLs. Their style of play relies on massed fighters and e-mines and with more opposing ships on the table, this tactic still works.

 

[Voronesh]

Surely the Gaim need strengthening? It is accepted that they are great at Raid level but are poor at Battle War and Armageddon.

Ok Tourneys are generally at raid level, but that is a fault with the tourney not the fleet list. But if the Gaim are poor at any level higher than raid then surely they need to be improved. Or does the Almighty all pervading 5 point raid game come above everything else?

Well they fare poorly at high PL games, simply because they only have a battle lvl ship, that in my opinion is barely worth taking, like many top of the fleet list ships.

The problem is that Gaim at low lvls are hideously powerful for a tabletop game, meaning, yes you can win against them, but often it needs alot of work (semi-acceptable) and also some tailoruing of your own fleet to oppose them (definietly not ok). Since the metagame should not hinge on, will he play Gaim or not :S.

 

[Target]

Not that i've played with Giam or even seen them played but maybe if their ships lost interceptors & anti fighter rating that might help. It would mean that they have use their fighters for defense instead of crewed missles.
Actually started thinking about the olde shadow fighter, shouldn't it be able to kamikaze as well since it's meant to be a type of drone. Sorry way off topic.

 

[Voronesh]

Your idea is something to consider as well.


On Shadows:
Well actually it might. But that would a bad use of resources. Why crash if a continued use of the gun can do more damage. Guns are made for destruction fighters not really. Those Gaim are a good excpetion, cause they design em to be missiles.

 

[Ripple]

the record keeping comment was based on missiles lasting a number of turns not a 'one' turn. That was the concern.

Ripple

 

[tneva82]

get over it, the WS isn't going to be a win all ship! it will win lots, loose some, just like any other ship. Again, the ISa have the biggest fleet selection available, they are not a WS only fleet, sheesh!

And how you plan to defeat Gaim with ISA without specific allies? In tournie style without knowing you face Gaim.

Easy to say "take Dag'Gar as ally" but fact is not every ISA fleet is going to have dag'gar in every single game. Fact is also not every ISA fleet is going to have allies.

If you need specific allies to beat Gaim then Gaim needs fixes. Simple fact. If you need specifically tailor your fleet against something then that something is broken. Fact.

So how would YOU beat Gaim with standard ISA? Forget fleet selection. Use only tactics. If you can't beat Gaim without resorting to specific allies you have proven Gaim needs fixing.

 

[katadder]

also dag'kar is hull 4 and will be raped by photon bombs. add in the fact it only fires every other turn and the fact that 2 g'kariths didnt make an appreciable dent in my tourney fleet.

 

[Burger]

Best way to defeat Gaim with ISA is by taking Gaim allies yourself
A couple of the skirmish level queens should mop up those enemy fighters nicely and be pretty survivable themselves. And do very nicely against all other comers, too... in fact Gaim are pretty much dream allies for ISA!

 

[H]

get over it, the WS isn't going to be a win all ship! it will win lots, loose some, just like any other ship. Again, the ISa have the biggest fleet selection available, they are not a WS only fleet, sheesh!

And how you plan to defeat Gaim with ISA without specific allies? In tournie style without knowing you face Gaim.

Easy to say "take Dag'Gar as ally" but fact is not every ISA fleet is going to have dag'gar in every single game. Fact is also not every ISA fleet is going to have allies.

If you need specific allies to beat Gaim then Gaim needs fixes. Simple fact. If you need specifically tailor your fleet against something then that something is broken. Fact.

So how would YOU beat Gaim with standard ISA? Forget fleet selection. Use only tactics. If you can't beat Gaim without resorting to specific allies you have proven Gaim needs fixing.

i re-iterate a previous comment.

ACTA is NOT just a tourney game, I'm sorry to break this too you but it has other ways to be played too. because this fleet may excel against the ISA at a raid level tourney does not make them broke. Just like ISA can easily trounce severeal other races at raid level tourneys, it does not make the ISA broken either.
The problem again could be said to be how tourneys are run, not how strong a race is at raid level.

 

[Right Hand of God]

Hiff I have to say I totally agree with you 100%, however I think we are wasting our breath, some people just don't seem to be able to see past the 5 point raid tourny. FACT. Sorry couldn't resist.

 

[Voronesh]

Best way to defeat Gaim with ISA is by taking Gaim allies yourself
A couple of the skirmish level queens should mop up those enemy fighters nicely and be pretty survivable themselves. And do very nicely against all other comers, too... in fact Gaim are pretty much dream allies for ISA!

Taking something powerful to counter something powerful. Good idea, if both are the same its turns into a moot point though. How do you beat superman as a standard human? Simply take superman as an ally :S. Not really.

Hiff I have to say I totally agree with you 100%, however I think we are wasting our breath, some people just don't seem to be able to see past the 5 point raid tourny. FACT. Sorry couldn't resist.

And some people seem to have a short memory span. FACT. Sorry couldn't resist. Minbari were once so powerful at battle to war, theyd have goods odds on their sides, switch back to skirmish or patrol, a Minari player didnt even need to play the game, odds stacked against him. Fleets should be balanced at every lvl, or at least at those they have ships at.

And to top it off. The larger the game gets, the.....ughh nothing changes for ISA, until you get Armageddon. 1 War points gets me 8 Shuukas. Take a VCD PLEASE. Youre begging to lose it to my breaching pods. Take any WS, it wont get dodge, and AA is useless against 2 AD photon bombs.

Ignoring a problem doesnt solve it. And thats what your doing. And since when did tapletop games stop being competitive and fair? ACTA once had tourney rules just for that. 2e isnt a free letter to forget all that.

Because this fleet may excel against the ISA at a raid level tourney does not make them broke.

You have just stated that they are broken (at least the Shuuka) at tourneys. And that WILL turn ACTA into a nontourney game.

 

[H]

Best way to defeat Gaim with ISA is by taking Gaim allies yourself
A couple of the skirmish level queens should mop up those enemy fighters nicely and be pretty survivable themselves. And do very nicely against all other comers, too... in fact Gaim are pretty much dream allies for ISA!

Taking something powerful to counter something powerful. Good idea, if both are the same its turns into a moot point though. How do you beat superman as a standard human? Simply take superman as an ally :S. Not really.

Hiff I have to say I totally agree with you 100%, however I think we are wasting our breath, some people just don't seem to be able to see past the 5 point raid tourny. FACT. Sorry couldn't resist.

And some people seem to have a short memory span. FACT. Sorry couldn't resist. Minbari were once so powerful at battle to war, theyd have goods odds on their sides, switch back to skirmish or patrol, a Minari player didnt even need to play the game, odds stacked against him. Fleets should be balanced at every lvl, or at least at those they have ships at.

And to top it off. The larger the game gets, the.....ughh nothing changes for ISA, until you get Armageddon. 1 War points gets me 8 Shuukas. Take a VCD PLEASE. Youre begging to lose it to my breaching pods. Take any WS, it wont get dodge, and AA is useless against 2 AD photon bombs.

Ignoring a problem doesnt solve it. And thats what your doing. And since when did tapletop games stop being competitive and fair? ACTA once had tourney rules just for that. 2e isnt a free letter to forget all that.

Because this fleet may excel against the ISA at a raid level tourney does not make them broke.

Well it does make the broken (at least the Shuuka) at tourneys. And that WILL turn ACTA into a nontourney game.

but acta ISN'T just a fracking tourney game, you seem oblivious to this fact, and seem determined that the gaim are broken because of one fleet they can beat on one scenario, you are being incredibly small minded and just coming across now as a whiny bitch. May i say, very few fleets can beat the isa on blockade run, well heck, the isa are broken as well, better re-stat them!

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Hiff I have to say I totally agree with you 100%, however I think we are wasting our breath, some people just don't seem to be able to see past the 5 point raid tourny. FACT. Sorry couldn't resist.

Problem is, tournament play is the way to play for some gamers, and it's a way to play for everyone else. Tneva is right when he says a fleet shouldn't automatically lose a tournament game because of which race the opponent has chosen.

Five point raid is the standard game for 99% of players out there. If the Gaim dominate that size game they need to be looked at again. It really is that simple. Not everyone has 20 point war fleets and not everyone has time or space to play that size game, FA scale models or not. For myself I don't think the Gaim are hugely broken but their play style annoys me and I wouldn't want to use them or play against them.

 

[Burger]

May i say, very few fleets can beat the isa on blockade run, well heck, the isa are broken as well, better re-stat them!

In fact a Blue Star with the enhanced gravitic drive upgrade is unbeatable!

Five point raid is the standard game for 99% of players out there.

THIS is where the problem lies! Change it to 1pt Armageddon and all is fixed for all fleets