Gaim-simple solution to reballance
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As promised one Gaim vs Centauri battle report.
5pt raid
Gaim
3 Shuuka Queen L. cruisers
1 Staaka gunship
1 Skrunnka assault ship
2 Stuteeka carriers
Centauri
1 Sulust
4 Vorchan
2 Maximus
2 Morgrath
Terrain was light (1 asteroid field), mission was straight fight for VP's.
Gaim deployed first at the back, centauri split into 3 groups, 2 Vorchans in hyperspace, the rest coming in from on each flank.
Turn 1-2. Gaim launch all fighters while Centauri close the range. Sulust hurts one of the queen ships (3 crits, loses carrier and -2 AD in turn 1!) but is rewarded by massed photon bombs that cripple it in turn 2 of firing (even with closed blast doors) and it's Maximus is also hit.
Turn 3-4. Now at close range the Centauri begin to pick their targets. The carriers is quickly overwhelmed by 2 pairs of Vorchans and 'accidental' friendly fire by the photon bombs. The Sulust is destroyed by fighters and missiles. Queen is killed by a Morgrath and its escort. Staaka gunship dies to a lucky crit.
Turn 5. Centauri open jump-points. 2 Maximus, a Morgrath and one Vorchan kill another queen, but loose a Vorchan and a Morgrath is captured.
Turn 6. Centauri escape.
Gaim 41 VP
Centauri 51 VP
Close, but a solid win. Moral victory to the Gaim (they would have fared better if this was a campaigh game). I concentrated anti-fighter on the boarding pods, then crewed missiles. Maximus' were worth their weight in gold and then some, responsible for something like 40 fighter/pod kills over 4 turns of being in the fight. The Centauri would have probably done a bit better with a few ships carrying fighters (launching them into combat). A Demos to back the Sulust up in turn 1 could have killed the queen.
It was difficult and I have to say I was a bit lucky as very few boarding pods got through. It seems that you have to be willing to sacrifice your fleet to win the battle, not ideal in a campaign.
Tom
5pt raid
Gaim
3 Shuuka Queen L. cruisers
1 Staaka gunship
1 Skrunnka assault ship
2 Stuteeka carriers
Centauri
1 Sulust
4 Vorchan
2 Maximus
2 Morgrath
Terrain was light (1 asteroid field), mission was straight fight for VP's.
Gaim deployed first at the back, centauri split into 3 groups, 2 Vorchans in hyperspace, the rest coming in from on each flank.
Turn 1-2. Gaim launch all fighters while Centauri close the range. Sulust hurts one of the queen ships (3 crits, loses carrier and -2 AD in turn 1!) but is rewarded by massed photon bombs that cripple it in turn 2 of firing (even with closed blast doors) and it's Maximus is also hit.
Turn 3-4. Now at close range the Centauri begin to pick their targets. The carriers is quickly overwhelmed by 2 pairs of Vorchans and 'accidental' friendly fire by the photon bombs. The Sulust is destroyed by fighters and missiles. Queen is killed by a Morgrath and its escort. Staaka gunship dies to a lucky crit.
Turn 5. Centauri open jump-points. 2 Maximus, a Morgrath and one Vorchan kill another queen, but loose a Vorchan and a Morgrath is captured.
Turn 6. Centauri escape.
Gaim 41 VP
Centauri 51 VP
Close, but a solid win. Moral victory to the Gaim (they would have fared better if this was a campaigh game). I concentrated anti-fighter on the boarding pods, then crewed missiles. Maximus' were worth their weight in gold and then some, responsible for something like 40 fighter/pod kills over 4 turns of being in the fight. The Centauri would have probably done a bit better with a few ships carrying fighters (launching them into combat). A Demos to back the Sulust up in turn 1 could have killed the queen.
It was difficult and I have to say I was a bit lucky as very few boarding pods got through. It seems that you have to be willing to sacrifice your fleet to win the battle, not ideal in a campaign.
Tom
Nice report.
Sry i havent read the full thread actually. Now Gaim seem balanced from that report, more or less problably less.
But try that against a 10 Shuuka fleet.
Now punishing the full Gaim fleet will do nothing about that single ship, that sticks out the dirty finger at everybody else......
Sry i havent read the full thread actually. Now Gaim seem balanced from that report, more or less problably less.
But try that against a 10 Shuuka fleet.
Now punishing the full Gaim fleet will do nothing about that single ship, that sticks out the dirty finger at everybody else......
The Shuukas died too quickly. 19 damage and 2 interceptors can't stop any serious firepower. Speed 6 means they can't avoid danger if it's chasing them. A Sulust seriously hurt one in turn 1 with it's battle laser, 2 would have crippled it if not destroyed it (should have taken a Demos or two). White-stars would have slaughtered if if you could its beam into range.
1 more turn could have changed the outcome. Most of the Centauri ships were getting close to crippled/skeleton crew, but so were the Gaim. Also, the Gaim were low on fighters (20 or so left including fighters, missiles and pods). Should have played 1 more turn.
I had studied Gaim tactics (I use them after all), so knew how to defeat them. I also had a clear plan (Earn VP's, Earn more VP's, don't give VP's away, earn more vp's) and stuck to it.
1 more turn could have changed the outcome. Most of the Centauri ships were getting close to crippled/skeleton crew, but so were the Gaim. Also, the Gaim were low on fighters (20 or so left including fighters, missiles and pods). Should have played 1 more turn.
I had studied Gaim tactics (I use them after all), so knew how to defeat them. I also had a clear plan (Earn VP's, Earn more VP's, don't give VP's away, earn more vp's) and stuck to it.
Shuukas pump about 26 damage out on WS per turn. Thats 2 WS dead first turn to photon bombing. Plus any extras that were only 6" apart, but that would be very rare indeed. A single braching pod making conatct means a conquered WS and well the crewed missiles will help, but not do too much.
I never did a calculation on Shuukas vs Centauri actually. Your fleet is a bit swarmy, so a Skrunnka isnt too great a choice due to its beaminess (curse 2e beam rules on that), and i would be expecting a few double hits on Centauri skirmish vessels. I think wou wouldnt be using squadrons, as that is just free targets for gaim emines. looks like a good matchup ^^. Will look into more detail tomorrow, but its getting late......(sry if any whoe want more)
I never did a calculation on Shuukas vs Centauri actually. Your fleet is a bit swarmy, so a Skrunnka isnt too great a choice due to its beaminess (curse 2e beam rules on that), and i would be expecting a few double hits on Centauri skirmish vessels. I think wou wouldnt be using squadrons, as that is just free targets for gaim emines. looks like a good matchup ^^. Will look into more detail tomorrow, but its getting late......(sry if any whoe want more)
Whenever the mission allows it the whitestars will be jumping out of hyperspace at point blank range and wiping out 2-3 Shuukas per turn. Boarding shouldn't be too much of a problem as the WS's are more than twice the speed of the boarding pods.
10 Shuukas is against the spirit of the rules. What about a max of 50% of the fleet as queen-ships.
10 Shuukas is against the spirit of the rules. What about a max of 50% of the fleet as queen-ships.
And you wont be jumping in that close every single time. If necessary youd be utilizing friendly fire. If WS mob a Shuuka, its extra free hits. Its still about 2 dead WS first turn. And then the power balance has shifted heavily for Gaim. Plus if you mob, it gets hard to evade breaching pods. If you fly further away, youre playing into Gaim hands. And then there are extra crewed missiles for fun, not really needed.
Sure it is against, ehh not really, its not against the spirit of the rules. Its only utilizing hideously effective single ship fleets. Like when Sags were sio powerful youd simply take 10 of them to a tourney. Since when are artillery vessels a pure fleet, of the Centauri beam team?
This is not so much a spirit of the rules problem, as a full rules problem, this single ship (noooo im not talking about the Gaim fleet in general) is too powerful. Reducing the number being allowed to take is only removing the symptom and not the disease.
Sure it is against, ehh not really, its not against the spirit of the rules. Its only utilizing hideously effective single ship fleets. Like when Sags were sio powerful youd simply take 10 of them to a tourney. Since when are artillery vessels a pure fleet, of the Centauri beam team?
This is not so much a spirit of the rules problem, as a full rules problem, this single ship (noooo im not talking about the Gaim fleet in general) is too powerful. Reducing the number being allowed to take is only removing the symptom and not the disease.
thanks for the report - interesting.
What was the scenario you played?
would you have chosen two carriers rather than 1 and 2 Shuuka's?
did the "dynamic squadrons" help - ie being able to fire all ships either first or just after the first Centauri ship?
I presume you were playing that without a Scout on the table - as no Corvan listed, he can not fire when he enters from hyperspace, also the hyperspace will deviate.................
did that work as it should leave the the Vorchans VERY vulnerbale - no turns, firing or special actions?
What was the scenario you played?
would you have chosen two carriers rather than 1 and 2 Shuuka's?
did the "dynamic squadrons" help - ie being able to fire all ships either first or just after the first Centauri ship?
inq101 said:
I presume you were playing that without a Scout on the table - as no Corvan listed, he can not fire when he enters from hyperspace, also the hyperspace will deviate.................
did that work as it should leave the the Vorchans VERY vulnerbale - no turns, firing or special actions?In reverse order.
The Vorchans coming out of hyperspace suffered on the turn they appeared but survived (took about 40-50% damage if I remember) but were such a sudden threat that they diverted masses of firepower away from the rest of the fleet.
Dynamic squadrons was only used during one turn of the game near the end. Doing it left him with no initiative sinks in the movement phase letting me pick on the queen-ships. The shooting phase HURT, but was over quickly.
I would have used 2 Skrunnka and one carrier (that is my standard 5 pt raid).
Scenario was a standard 'Call to Arms' (straight fight) without random points and with a little scenery.
The Vorchans coming out of hyperspace suffered on the turn they appeared but survived (took about 40-50% damage if I remember) but were such a sudden threat that they diverted masses of firepower away from the rest of the fleet.
Dynamic squadrons was only used during one turn of the game near the end. Doing it left him with no initiative sinks in the movement phase letting me pick on the queen-ships. The shooting phase HURT, but was over quickly.
I would have used 2 Skrunnka and one carrier (that is my standard 5 pt raid).
Scenario was a standard 'Call to Arms' (straight fight) without random points and with a little scenery.
I have noticed that coming in from hyper seems to be a major component of a lot of battle reports, I didn't think it was allowed all that often.
On why the gaim are tough -
I think Matt and others are majorly playing down the effect of the e-mines. Twenty-two to twenty-three damage was quoted vs hull 5, that's at least a cripple shot on most skirmish ships, and all joking aside I would be very surprised to see a stack of e-mines only hitting one ship. At least not if the enemy wanted to be in range of the Gaim.
The fighter swarm can be devastating because you have to deal with it somehow. Aside from the Centauri Maximus most escorts don't have enough dice to be effective and not be eating lots of bombs.
Don't like the 'timer' suggestion as it means doing record keeping on 100+ counters over the course of the game. We just dumped afterburner in part to avoid this.
The topic requires a more complicated post, but those are just a few quick thoughts. Main issues is that everything the gaim do well, works well together, the fact that they do some things badly becomes largely irrelevant. It's not that they are unbeatable, much like previous complaints vs the minbari, isa and others...it's that they may have an advantage stacked for them. If they win 70& of time with players of equal skill, they are broken.
Ripple
On why the gaim are tough -
I think Matt and others are majorly playing down the effect of the e-mines. Twenty-two to twenty-three damage was quoted vs hull 5, that's at least a cripple shot on most skirmish ships, and all joking aside I would be very surprised to see a stack of e-mines only hitting one ship. At least not if the enemy wanted to be in range of the Gaim.
The fighter swarm can be devastating because you have to deal with it somehow. Aside from the Centauri Maximus most escorts don't have enough dice to be effective and not be eating lots of bombs.
Don't like the 'timer' suggestion as it means doing record keeping on 100+ counters over the course of the game. We just dumped afterburner in part to avoid this.
The topic requires a more complicated post, but those are just a few quick thoughts. Main issues is that everything the gaim do well, works well together, the fact that they do some things badly becomes largely irrelevant. It's not that they are unbeatable, much like previous complaints vs the minbari, isa and others...it's that they may have an advantage stacked for them. If they win 70& of time with players of equal skill, they are broken.
Ripple
Actually you are using the wrong numbers, some maximised fleets can push alot more than just 23-26 damage vs hull 5. The most you can achieve is 80AD of AP emines in a 5 point raid tourney fleet.
And while hyperspacing in is a great idea against Gaim, unless it has become widely available in tourney scenarios, i dont think that it should be part of balanced view on the Gaim.
Because then it might turn into a situation where Gaim would be VERY powerful when hyperspacing in is not allowed , and rather weak when it IS allowed.
Just like Minbari were in campaigns. Autolose low priority lvls, and nearly autowin high priority lvls.........
And while hyperspacing in is a great idea against Gaim, unless it has become widely available in tourney scenarios, i dont think that it should be part of balanced view on the Gaim.
Because then it might turn into a situation where Gaim would be VERY powerful when hyperspacing in is not allowed , and rather weak when it IS allowed.
Just like Minbari were in campaigns. Autolose low priority lvls, and nearly autowin high priority lvls.........
After giving the Gaim a bit more thought, I have come to the conclusion that I would like to see them lose the e-mine weapons. Regardless of balance, I would like to see this, as it would encourage more diversity in fleet selection. In updating the rules in 2E I believe that a conscious effort went into making fighters more viable – long range heavy bombers, increasing the number of fighters on certain carriers, fighters being usable for interceptor duty, etc. I think these changes were all for the good – give the players more variety in designing their fleets.
As the Gaim stand now, I would be very reluctant to bring fighters if I think I may have to fight them. I would also be reluctant to bring any carriers that have a low hull score as they primarily supply fighters (which are likely to die to mass e-mines) and they are vulnerable to the long-range e-mines themselves. There are some battle-carriers that might serve, but in general carriers become significantly less desirable.
If the Gaim did not have e-mines, the opposite becomes true. I am now very motivated to find space in my fleet for a carrier in case I have to face the Gaim because I can use the fighters to help defend the capital ships against the suicide fighter swarm. The Gaim will likely have enough fighters to overwhelm my fighters in the end, but they may just save some of my ships in the mean whilst. The same holds true for independent fighter wings.
If the Gaim were to lose their e-mines, they would likely need to have more fighters (yes, even more fighters) to make up the difference (the Gaim exist in a precarious balance), but just having them in the fleet book would further encourage diversity and fleet balancing angst (which I enjoy).
-Humbaba
(hmmm, maybe then the Gaim could have suicide e-mine fighters to some limited extent.)
As the Gaim stand now, I would be very reluctant to bring fighters if I think I may have to fight them. I would also be reluctant to bring any carriers that have a low hull score as they primarily supply fighters (which are likely to die to mass e-mines) and they are vulnerable to the long-range e-mines themselves. There are some battle-carriers that might serve, but in general carriers become significantly less desirable.
If the Gaim did not have e-mines, the opposite becomes true. I am now very motivated to find space in my fleet for a carrier in case I have to face the Gaim because I can use the fighters to help defend the capital ships against the suicide fighter swarm. The Gaim will likely have enough fighters to overwhelm my fighters in the end, but they may just save some of my ships in the mean whilst. The same holds true for independent fighter wings.
If the Gaim were to lose their e-mines, they would likely need to have more fighters (yes, even more fighters) to make up the difference (the Gaim exist in a precarious balance), but just having them in the fleet book would further encourage diversity and fleet balancing angst (which I enjoy).
-Humbaba
(hmmm, maybe then the Gaim could have suicide e-mine fighters to some limited extent.)
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Like I said, replace the e-mines with pulse batteries. Sure, they'd be another low-beam fleet, but the crewed missiles and emphasis on boarding would make them different enough to other fleets.
unbelievable. A battle report to show the centauri beat the gaim, and the ink (metaphorically) has hardly dried, and again we have bloody whines about how the whitestars would fair.
get over it, the WS isn't going to be a win all ship! it will win lots, loose some, just like any other ship. Again, the ISa have the biggest fleet selection available, they are not a WS only fleet, sheesh!
thank you for the battle report, sounds very bloody, would have been hell in a campaign! as it was, brave tactics that worked well.
get over it, the WS isn't going to be a win all ship! it will win lots, loose some, just like any other ship. Again, the ISa have the biggest fleet selection available, they are not a WS only fleet, sheesh!
thank you for the battle report, sounds very bloody, would have been hell in a campaign! as it was, brave tactics that worked well.
Well the ink has actually dried on that battle report.
And there are arguments against that report too (Nothing against the creator but) using hyperspace doesnt seem to be a fair assessment for standard scenarios. As far as i can remember it isnt always allowed or actually more often forbidden than allowed.
And WS will not always win, but they stand pretty much no chance against a Gaim fleet, often loosing two WS first turn. No they wont lose every time, but race choice wasnt supposed to be a deciding factor in winning games last time i checked.
And a single battle report makes bad evidence. In the other thread we had enough situtations (no batreps i know, but still good thoughts) that proved that there were enough races that did not really stand a chance. Shadows and Vorlons being prime among them, and Abbai not far behind.
And there are arguments against that report too (Nothing against the creator but) using hyperspace doesnt seem to be a fair assessment for standard scenarios. As far as i can remember it isnt always allowed or actually more often forbidden than allowed.
And WS will not always win, but they stand pretty much no chance against a Gaim fleet, often loosing two WS first turn. No they wont lose every time, but race choice wasnt supposed to be a deciding factor in winning games last time i checked.
And a single battle report makes bad evidence. In the other thread we had enough situtations (no batreps i know, but still good thoughts) that proved that there were enough races that did not really stand a chance. Shadows and Vorlons being prime among them, and Abbai not far behind.
I was pretty lucky during the game (not exessively so) and I had planned how to win the game. I feel that most fleets need new tactics to beat the Gaim, but they are beatable by anyone. Their e-mines are powerful (and I do feel they need a change, see previous posts for my suggestions) but are not a game winning weapon, by themselves.
No the emines themselves are not the problem, they are a symptom of the whole problem.
Which is comprised i think of:
Emines (ok that aint new)
Crewed missiles (well fighters too, but most of you know that too)
breaching pods (still most of will know this, but
breaching pods can kill enemies, that might win on other accounts. Some races like Minbari have some really hard ships, Abbai too, Brakiri as well, but sometimes the whole fleet or just some ships, have so low troop scores that the Gaim special combat drones coupled with breaching pods mean a swift death or rather conquest of the enemy fleet.
Yes new tactics must be developed, but i dont think Gaim are like Drakh or Dilgar just a new race, but more like SFOS Minbar (real hard and a tad too good), not necessarily as wrong as the armaggedon Sag (but the Shuuka needs more attention than other ships...)
Which is comprised i think of:
Emines (ok that aint new)
Crewed missiles (well fighters too, but most of you know that too)
breaching pods (still most of will know this, but
breaching pods can kill enemies, that might win on other accounts. Some races like Minbari have some really hard ships, Abbai too, Brakiri as well, but sometimes the whole fleet or just some ships, have so low troop scores that the Gaim special combat drones coupled with breaching pods mean a swift death or rather conquest of the enemy fleet.
Yes new tactics must be developed, but i dont think Gaim are like Drakh or Dilgar just a new race, but more like SFOS Minbar (real hard and a tad too good), not necessarily as wrong as the armaggedon Sag (but the Shuuka needs more attention than other ships...)
Tzarevitch
Mongoose
Voronesh said:No the emines themselves are not the problem, they are a symptom of the whole problem.
Which is comprised i think of:
Emines (ok that aint new)
Crewed missiles (well fighters too, but most of you know that too)
breaching pods (still most of will know this, but
breaching pods can kill enemies, that might win on other accounts. Some races like Minbari have some really hard ships, Abbai too, Brakiri as well, but sometimes the whole fleet or just some ships, have so low troop scores that the Gaim special combat drones coupled with breaching pods mean a swift death or rather conquest of the enemy fleet.
Yes new tactics must be developed, but i dont think Gaim are like Drakh or Dilgar just a new race, but more like SFOS Minbar (real hard and a tad too good), not necessarily as wrong as the armaggedon Sag (but the Shuuka needs more attention than other ships...)
Yes, the 40" e-mines on a skirmish level ship I think is too much. The range should not have been more than 30". That still out-ranges almost everything at that level. 40" range on battle level ships is not unreasonable though.
Tzarevitch
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