Gaim-simple solution to reballance

[Triggy]

Again I agree to an extent that poeple are overeacting but if a fleet utterly DOMINATES at 5pt raid then mayhaps its time to change the tourney rules away from that level every game?

Now as I've said a hundred times now I dont think the Gaim are unbeatable or even necessarily overpowered (and frankly I dont see the emines even in large numbers as a SERIOUS anti ship threat, theyer at best a nuiscance. The only problem I have with them is they make playing the fighter swarm too easy by cleaing the skies far too effectively. Just make it a little harder for the Gaim to get their fighters in there, not much mind you, just a little, and I'd be happy.

I agree with the sentiments here (aside from I think they are at least a bit overpowered.

However, I don't think this is just a Raid PL game issue. I think they are fairly equally powerful at all PLs barring maybe War/Armageddon (and that may change as and when they get a War PL ship). Raid PL (and Battle PL) are where the game needs to be best balanced as these are by far the majority of games played. I don't think we need to jump overboard and be too drastic by changing rules instantly however I do like people looking at where any potential imbalance is (e.g. is it the photon bombs, fighters are launched too quickly, fighters do too much damage, ships are too tough, photon bombs are turreted, etc.).

Give it another tournament or two, a few campaigns and people will have a better handle on the fleet and if it keeps kicking ass so thoroughly then something will probably get done. For now, keep thinking and playing them games...

 

[Da Boss]

Once again, 26 damage (actually 22-23, after Bulkhead hits are taken out) is not going to overly bother a predominantly Hull 5 fleet. Yes, Hull 4 fleets will get hit hard, but they will have more ships and, at the end of the day, the whole function of Hull 4 is to take more damage! They get other trade offs instead. . .
Have to say, quite enjoying these discussions

Hmm 26 damage kills any of my ships in a standard tournament fleet that i would take against any other fleet (Demos, Liati, Corvan) except the Maximus (naturally)and Balvaran in one turn - which is fair enough but that would actually bother me. if the scenario allows me to be in gun range on turn 2 I may have a chance depending on effect of the fighters / breeching pods......and the Gaim interceptors

 

[Locutus9956]

Again I agree to an extent that poeple are overeacting but if a fleet utterly DOMINATES at 5pt raid then mayhaps its time to change the tourney rules away from that level every game?

Now as I've said a hundred times now I dont think the Gaim are unbeatable or even necessarily overpowered (and frankly I dont see the emines even in large numbers as a SERIOUS anti ship threat, theyer at best a nuiscance. The only problem I have with them is they make playing the fighter swarm too easy by cleaing the skies far too effectively. Just make it a little harder for the Gaim to get their fighters in there, not much mind you, just a little, and I'd be happy.

ok then. IS ACTA purely a tourney game? no it is not. the game can be played as a campaign, or any number of one off games at varying levels. this is where different fleets strengths and weaknesses apply. Now then I agree that all tournesy being 5 point raid, does favour certain fleetswho will excel at that level. But changing one fleet is the wrong answer, what is needed is a more varieable and perhaps inovative approach to tourneys, which means different levels of battle can be played, meaning the Raid strong fleet isn't going to get an easy ride.

therefore, is it best to look at "how to implement a balanced tourney" or continue with "Gaim are broken"

I think ideas for new types of Tourney will be more productive and avoid the usual over reactions we get on fleet issues!

All true but I dont think its the whole story really. I frankly see Gaim as a bit too good at clearing enemy fighter defences at ANY PL. At some priority levels this makes less of an impact hence why they seem to excel at raid in my eyes but the point of them being good at raid is for me more of a SYMPTOM than the actual ROOT of the problem.

A big problem I think corpped up with them at the last tourney though was the limit on ship numbers but no limit on fighters. This means that fleets liek gaim who DONT rely on ship numbers can still deploy basically their full swarm wheres one of the suggested counters, numerous low hull high firepower ships, is hamstrung by not being allowed to take the numbers you might want to....

For example if I WOULD say a 5 pt raid decent all rounder and reasonably good anti Gaim fleet might be 4 Demos, 4 Maximus, 2 Darkners (or maybe 1 Sullust). But thats either 9 or 10 ships so couldnt have been fielded at the last tourney. Now I dont have a problem with limiting ship numbers but if some fleets rely more on fighters than ships it strikes me that limiting one and not the other tilts things a little....

I dunno, the problem I have is that as noted I DONT think the gaim are unbalanced its just hard to get ACTA to work a sa truly balanced toruanemtn game when so much of the PL system tends to make some fleets better at some levels...(and number limits can do the same really).

I really do think the 1pt Armageddon idea would be a good step in the right direction though (the trouble there is when you look at victory points though I suppose you could just say VP are scored as though it was a raid level game?)

 

[Locutus9956]

Oh also, as to killing off the fighters, bear in mind that the gaim amongst other things have cheap and easy access to the fleet carrier ability so its easier said than done!

The one thing I DID when I fought them was target the fighters as much as I could with regular guns, and in all honesty I think that may have been a mistake as in a tourney game if you kill 100 carried fighters and the gaim kill ONE PATROL LEVEL ship you still lose the game....

Again Im not saying change them for tourneys alone but Im just pointing out that its easy to say, oh just do this, but actually putting it into practice is another thing entirely.

Out of curiosity: Has anyone won a game vs Gaim with either ISA or Centauri. At ANY PL? If so lets hear what happened

In fact in general, lets have some battle reports on here with the Gaim on the losing side. I think once people start seeing how they CAN and have lost alot of the more reactionary 'omg Gaim are so broken' sort of posts will filter away....

 

[scorpioni]

I'll be playing in a tourney with a player that fields 5 Raid queens. Perhaps not as powerful as 10 Skirmish queens but still

I'll let you know how he does

 

[inq101]

I'll try it out tomorrow. Personally I think the Centauri stand a pretty good chance vs Gaim. Fast ships that have the firepower to easily overwhelm Gaim interceptors and one of the best escorts in the game.

 

[Da Boss]

cool - look forward to the reports

 

[katadder]

Where people are falling down at the moment is with the fighters, and the inability to construct a solid fighter screen that does not just get e-mined out of existence (which is actually not a bad strategy, if your Hull 4 ships are surviving instead), or simply overwhelmed. In the latter case, they are at least delaying the Gaim for a turn or two - which, incidentally, is _precisely_ what the two Gaim players did to each other in the tournament.

this is true, fighters were not launched until up close and personal and able to engage on their next move so even with the masses of fighters launched i think there was only ever 1 anti-shipping attack which bounced anyway.
the fighters did nothing of note in Gaim v Gaim fight due to the AF and hull 6. hull 6 really is a pain for the Gaim as the fighters have to get past the AF then only hit 50% of the time which is why i use breaching pods to deal with hull 6 ships (well and assault vessels beams).
if someone takes a full 10 skirmish queens think about using your actual main guns (not beams generally) on shooting up the fighters. they are hull 3 as fighters, hull 4 but dodge 3 as missiles so you can take them down, and the e-mines really are not going to do much due to being only AP and single damage. also a -1AD crit on any of those queens halves their firepower, 2 of these takes all guns out of action.

 

[CrookedWookie]

I always thought a really simple way to balance them a bit would maybe be the addition of an expiration date. According to the flavor text the Gaim fighters actually overload their reactors before crashing into something--unlike, say the Dilgar or a bad Minbari pilot.

You can't zip around indefinitely with your reactor set to overload, can you? So what if any fighters that went critical were removed from play after a turn, if they hadn't managed to hit a target?

I haven't played against the Gaim yet, so I'm not sure if stalling them would be a viable tactic or not, but it might prevent them from overloading and then spending a couple of turns trying to get at you.

 

[katadder]

that would probably be a good idea actually as at the moment scott and me used the fighters for one turn of movement then converted all to missiles.
with that you would have to think when to convert them to missiles as you need them, not just always ready.

 

[Triggy]

I always thought a really simple way to balance them a bit would maybe be the addition of an expiration date. According to the flavor text the Gaim fighters actually overload their reactors before crashing into something--unlike, say the Dilgar or a bad Minbari pilot.

You can't zip around indefinitely with your reactor set to overload, can you? So what if any fighters that went critical were removed from play after a turn, if they hadn't managed to hit a target?

I haven't played against the Gaim yet, so I'm not sure if stalling them would be a viable tactic or not, but it might prevent them from overloading and then spending a couple of turns trying to get at you.

I really like this suggestion - it at least adds another layer of tactics for the Gaim player (and their opponent - can advance quickly if few have converted but may opt to hang back if many have).

 

[super squirel]

I always thought a really simple way to balance them a bit would maybe be the addition of an expiration date. According to the flavor text the Gaim fighters actually overload their reactors before crashing into something--unlike, say the Dilgar or a bad Minbari pilot.

You can't zip around indefinitely with your reactor set to overload, can you? So what if any fighters that went critical were removed from play after a turn, if they hadn't managed to hit a target?

I haven't played against the Gaim yet, so I'm not sure if stalling them would be a viable tactic or not, but it might prevent them from overloading and then spending a couple of turns trying to get at you.

I really like this suggestion - it at least adds another layer of tactics for the Gaim player (and their opponent - can advance quickly if few have converted but may opt to hang back if many have).

To be honest, this was the bit I was expecting for them and was really surprised when I noticed they don't do that.

 

[Sulfurdown]

IMHO, the Gaim can use additional things to encourage tactics - but I think the intention behind the fluff is pointing to when they make the attack run. If the Klikkatak makes contact it makes it's attack, win or lose the fighter flight is gone after that roll, unrecoverable.

In other News - why can the Klikkitak survive, and more then that kill, in a dogfight? It has no weapons and is much like a Breaching Pod in that sense.

 

[Skipper]

We've got a Gaim player in our multiplayer campaigh. Gaim, Minbari, Psi-Corps, Shadows, and Abbai (me). As we get more experience I'll let you know what happens.

So far the only game I witnessed involved the Minbari vs Gaim at 5 skirmish points. The game was over in under 30 minutes (probably about 20 minutes). The Gaim lined up parallel to the board edge and then strated smacking the Minbari at range.

The Minbari managed to open a jump point and the second half entered at point blank range. The Minbari died in droves. The Suicide torps criticalled speed and then the boarding began directly from the mother ships. Getting in close wasn't the answer. The Gaim lost a few fighters, had a little damage on one...maybe two ships, but completely anihilated the Minbari force. The Minbari player was the better player, and yet was completely anihilated without gaining a single victory point.

I'll post more as I witness more games.

 

[katadder]

minbari are better off staying back and using beams whilst only taking e-mine fire that cant crit them. as the fighters close use mini beams on them whilst beaming the bigger ships and then launch the turn you think you can intercept. never take tigaras here although troligans may work.
better off with the tougher hulls like troligans and veshetans.

 

[Skipper]

Katadder,

Notice, I said it was 5 skirmish. Half of the fllet attempted to do just that. They died first. It was the torotha that got munched by the 5 queens at close range.

I've been attempting to figure out a battle plan myself for the Abbai. The options are not that good, but I'm still scheming and running through various ideas. Anyhow, I'll let ya'll know how the rest of us fair.

Skipper

 

[Methos5000]

How about the crewed missles can win a dogfight but only in the sense that it destroys an enemy fighter. If your flying around with your reactor going critical and the enemy starts shooting at your crewed missles it guns for the ship shooting at it and explodes. Taking the enemy fighter and the crewed missile with it.

 

[Harry Lonsdale]

I always thought a really simple way to balance them a bit would maybe be the addition of an expiration date. According to the flavor text the Gaim fighters actually overload their reactors before crashing into something--unlike, say the Dilgar or a bad Minbari pilot.

You can't zip around indefinitely with your reactor set to overload, can you? So what if any fighters that went critical were removed from play after a turn, if they hadn't managed to hit a target?

I haven't played against the Gaim yet, so I'm not sure if stalling them would be a viable tactic or not, but it might prevent them from overloading and then spending a couple of turns trying to get at you.

That's a cool idea.

Something else that could be done is to make them a little more like most real insect swarms, and only be able to take a single queen.

 

[Methos5000]

Triggy its a little off topic but how is the update ship comparison chart coming along? I'm curious how some of the Gaim ship rate going purely by the numbers and see if it holds up to how 'powerful' many think they are.

I am one of the people that feel they could have used a little toning down...they do to many things too well. Best fighter swarm...Check. Best boarding parties...Check. Unflankable long range attacks....Check. Advanced Anti-Fighter....Check. Interceptors...Check.

They even have decent Damage and Crew ratings in addition to Hull 6 on all but 2 ships and one of those ships is hiding behind Stealth 5+.

Not to mention that their normal long range attacks while not causing crits, ignore some major defenses of races that rely on Dodge or Stealth.

So while I don't think they are invincible most races are going to have serious trouble against them.

 

[Humbaba]

Just to add my 2 cents…

I think that a bit more of the focus should really be on the Shuuka-class Queen Light Cruiser. Having run calculations on the whole of the fleet lists, I have found that the Shuuka far out-strips other ships at skirmish priority and these calculations do not really take into account the synergistic effects of the Gaim’s e-mine/suicide fighter/improved breaching pod combo.

My basic numbers show the Shuuka running at 160% of your average skirmish ship – only two other ships compete comparably in their classes: the ISA Blue Star at Patrol (166%) and the Young Shadow Ship at War (160%). The Shadow ship is generally limited in games in that as a War priority ship you have a significant shortage of initiative sinks and thus have limited control over the field, whereas the Blue Star would be great in theory if you really could practically bring all of them to bear with their limited range. Of course these sorts of calculations do not tell the whole story, but they do sift some interesting things to the surface.

By comparison, the next highest Gaim ship by class is the Shrunnka Assault Ship at 119% of Raid level; a rating which is good, but within the margins in my view. I would be interested in seeing a discussion of the Gaim’s balance with a fleet that is not Shuuka based.

Balancing is always a tricky affair and the Gaim are particularly balanced on a razor’s edge (as they effectively have a large number of one use weapons); it would not take very much to make the fleet worthless. I do think that a significant concern is that as long as the Gaim are an upper echelon fleet, they will really limit the choice of non-hull 6 ships (and the extinction of dedicated carriers) for tournament fleets and for campaign games that feature them heavily (an unfortunate return to first edition style play).

Humbaba


BTW – kudos to the play testers, the fleet lists are generally excellent; you all did a terrific job at balancing and culling the first edition fleet lists. The game is much better for your efforts (and management’s, but that goes without saying).