Gaim-simple solution to reballance

[Davesaint]

EA are already a pretty much fighter-swarm fleet, though. I think the Gaim would be better off without the gimmicks - replace the e-mines with pulse cannons of some sort, perhaps purchased EA tech given the Gaim's fluff, and reduce the fighter numbers. Let them have the crewed missile option and the boarding bonus, but change them to a more conventional fleet. Maybe let them keep some e-mines but remove the dependance on them.

from older fluff, the gaim's first reall meeting with a galactic power was the narn, so from that it makes sense for them to have e-mines, although they are somewhat watered down versions thankfully.

They are only watered down in that they aren't triple damage. They aren't slow loading, and they are on a turret. That doesn't seem to watered down to me. Especially since many Narn Ships have 1 shot e-mines now.


Dave

 

[H]

EA are already a pretty much fighter-swarm fleet, though. I think the Gaim would be better off without the gimmicks - replace the e-mines with pulse cannons of some sort, perhaps purchased EA tech given the Gaim's fluff, and reduce the fighter numbers. Let them have the crewed missile option and the boarding bonus, but change them to a more conventional fleet. Maybe let them keep some e-mines but remove the dependance on them.

from older fluff, the gaim's first reall meeting with a galactic power was the narn, so from that it makes sense for them to have e-mines, although they are somewhat watered down versions thankfully.

They are only watered down in that they aren't triple damage. They aren't slow loading, and they are on a turret. That doesn't seem to watered down to me. Especially since many Narn Ships have 1 shot e-mines now.


Dave

would you perhaps prefer them to be triple damage ;-)

 

[inq101]

They are only watered down in that they aren't triple damage. They aren't slow loading, and they are on a turret. That doesn't seem to watered down to me. Especially since many Narn Ships have 1 shot e-mines now.


Dave

1/3 the AD, single damage (1/3 the damage), no SAP. Narn e-mines are ship-killers, Gaim e-mines are AF weapons that need to be used in overwhelming numbers to hurt a big ship.

 

[Davesaint]

They are only watered down in that they aren't triple damage. They aren't slow loading, and they are on a turret. That doesn't seem to watered down to me. Especially since many Narn Ships have 1 shot e-mines now.


Dave

1/3 the AD, single damage (1/3 the damage), no SAP. Narn e-mines are ship-killers, Gaim e-mines are AF weapons that need to be used in overwhelming numbers to hurt a big ship.

Sigh........


Hiff - No I would not prefer them to be triple damage.


Inq - they are not 1/3 the ad of the Narn as the ships get to fire them every friggin turn. They are turreted, so they are never out of arc. I can field 80AD of e-mines in a 5 raid fleet. Against hull 4 that's 40 hits. Against hull 5 that 26 Hits, against hull 6 you are looking at 13 hits. The problem is that if there are no fighters to screen you against the gaim fighters, you die. If you are fighting Narn, and they use ships with 1 shot emines, you close blast doors and use one of your turreted e-mine systems to sweep fighters and weather the storm versus the narn e-mines. And BTW, the Gaim's e-mines have 10" more of range........

Dave

 

[MongooseMatt]

They are turreted, so they are never out of arc. I can field 80AD of e-mines in a 5 raid fleet. . . against hull 6 you are looking at 13 hits.

So. . . the entire combined firepower of a 5 point Raid level fleet will do, what, 10-11 points of damage, with no chance of a critical hit? Maybe on just a single ship?

I fancy other fleets can dish out a fair bit more than that. They might even find they have some firepower 'spare'. What could they be shooting at. . ?

 

[inq101]

Narn do have several ships with e-mines that aren't one shot, and they have other guns to back it up.

The Gaims extra range could be explaned because the weapons are lighter. Strap a 1 ton warhead and a half ton warhead to the same rocket and the lighter one will go further. It'll work a little different in zero G, but the principles the same.

 

[H]

They are only watered down in that they aren't triple damage. They aren't slow loading, and they are on a turret. That doesn't seem to watered down to me. Especially since many Narn Ships have 1 shot e-mines now.


Dave

1/3 the AD, single damage (1/3 the damage), no SAP. Narn e-mines are ship-killers, Gaim e-mines are AF weapons that need to be used in overwhelming numbers to hurt a big ship.

Sigh........

so then, your entire fleet can scratch one ship if it concentrates fire, unless it's a very very soft ship. meanwhile, the return fire will be more deadly perhaps being DD, TD, and certainly able to crit

Hiff - No I would not prefer them to be triple damage.


Inq - they are not 1/3 the ad of the Narn as the ships get to fire them every friggin turn. They are turreted, so they are never out of arc. I can field 80AD of e-mines in a 5 raid fleet. Against hull 4 that's 40 hits. Against hull 5 that 26 Hits, against hull 6 you are looking at 13 hits. The problem is that if there are no fighters to screen you against the gaim fighters, you die. If you are fighting Narn, and they use ships with 1 shot emines, you close blast doors and use one of your turreted e-mine systems to sweep fighters and weather the storm versus the narn e-mines. And BTW, the Gaim's e-mines have 10" more of range........

Dave

so then, your entire fleet can scratch one ship if it concentrates fire, unless it's a very very soft ship. meanwhile, the return fire will be more deadly perhaps being DD, TD, and certainly able to crit
on how many tables will that 10" matter? i anything bigger than raid, the narn can senf out 45" e-mines 9they could at raid too technically, but it's a bit suicidal)

 

[Davesaint]

They are turreted, so they are never out of arc. I can field 80AD of e-mines in a 5 raid fleet. . . against hull 6 you are looking at 13 hits.

So. . . the entire combined firepower of a 5 point Raid level fleet will do, what, 10-11 points of damage, with no chance of a critical hit? Maybe on just a single ship?

I fancy other fleets can dish out a fair bit more than that. They might even find they have some firepower 'spare'. What could they be shooting at. . ?

Ok matt, if you want to just clip the one part of my statement, fine. The fact is that even if you take an all hull 6 fleet, between the e-mines, and the fact that the defender will have almost no defense against the fighter swarm, you will lose. Yep, you will do 10-11 points of damage at range 40 per turn with your e-mines while running away from your opponent and keeping out of range of your opponents long range firepower. So what about the 38 damage or so against hull 4? or 26 damage or so vs hull 5. This and you havent even factored in 1 shot with any fighters. The fact is because the gaim ships never have to close with the enemy with it's long range turreted weapons, it doesn't mean alot when comparing the damage that other ships can do when the cant get in range........

 

[H]

They are turreted, so they are never out of arc. I can field 80AD of e-mines in a 5 raid fleet. . . against hull 6 you are looking at 13 hits.

So. . . the entire combined firepower of a 5 point Raid level fleet will do, what, 10-11 points of damage, with no chance of a critical hit? Maybe on just a single ship?

I fancy other fleets can dish out a fair bit more than that. They might even find they have some firepower 'spare'. What could they be shooting at. . ?

Ok matt, if you want to just clip the one part of my statement, fine. The fact is that even if you take an all hull 6 fleet, between the e-mines, and the fact that the defender will have almost no defense against the fighter swarm, you will lose. Yep, you will do 10-11 points of damage at range 40 per turn with your e-mines while running away from your opponent and keeping out of range of your opponents long range firepower. So what about the 38 damage or so against hull 4? or 26 damage or so vs hull 5. This and you havent even factored in 1 shot with any fighters. The fact is because the gaim ships never have to close with the enemy with it's long range turreted weapons, it doesn't mean alot when comparing the damage that other ships can do when the cant get in range........

so to stay out of range, a gaim ship would in many cases have to start facing directly away, and continue moving directly away, otherwise trigonometry kicks in somewhere and the distance will be closed. now if you start runnign away, you run off the table.. and loose. as soon as you try to stay on the table, you aren't running directly away, and you get caught up. Ok, I have only played one game involving gaim. We didn't work out VP, but it may have been a draw, but more likely the shadow/dilgar alliance won. Matt will (hopefully) have played lots of games, as will the playtesters. How many games have You played? ok, this sounds arsey, but i'm getting sick and fedup of all the complaints that if X can't beat Y it means it's broken, well damn it all shirley, maybe you just ain't doing it right. It's a typical knee jerk reaction. last week narn were broken cos of e-mines, now in this thread the gaim are broen but Narn are OK, next week no doubt pak will be broken because of plasma webs and redundancy. Where does it end, every time someone looses do they have to mightily declare that the fleet that beat them was broken?

 

[Burger]

The Gaim can definitely play a good game of "Benny Hill": deploy backwards, run away while photon bombs pick off the enemy as they chase them around the board. They don't even need the fighters if played like this.

 

[inq101]

Dave, Most fleets have a long ranged weapon on their ships by raid level so will be able to engage at long range (at least by turn 2) on a normal sized board. The ones that dont are oftain rediculously fast and so can catch up with the Gaim ships.
You also have to take into account that few tables are more than 4-5' accross. add in deployment zones and even if the Gaim deploy at the back of the table they'll normaly be within 'normal' weapons range in under 3 turns.

 

[victor romeo]

whereas my standard 5 pint raid fleet would probably beat them, e-mines ahoy ;-)

I like this idea, drink 5 pints each then play a raid level game. I'd back myself against most other players then!

 

[Right Hand of God]

Cries to tweak a fleet because i's powerful at 5 point raid level? Fantastic stuff, way to go. Why not nerf the Minbari because they are powerful at war level. Let's downgrade the Vorlons and Shadows some more cos they do well at armageddon level. Narn have skirmish level covered so we should redo their ships as well. I suppose the EA rule battle level, so do we do those over as well? Get a grip please!

 

[H]

Cries to tweak a fleet because i's powerful at 5 point raid level? Fantastic stuff, way to go. Why not nerf the Minbari because they are powerful at war level. Let's downgrade the Vorlons and Shadows some more cos they do well at armageddon level. Narn have skirmish level covered so we should redo their ships as well. I suppose the EA rule battle level, so do we do those over as well? Get a grip please!

Amen brother!

 

[Burger]

Cries to tweak a fleet because i's powerful at 5 point raid level? Fantastic stuff, way to go. Why not nerf the Minbari because they are powerful at war level. Let's downgrade the Vorlons and Shadows some more cos they do well at armageddon level. Narn have skirmish level covered so we should redo their ships as well. I suppose the EA rule battle level, so do we do those over as well? Get a grip please!

The problem is that tournaments are played at Raid level. So being good at Raid is a massive advantage. Whereas being good at War level is next to useless (even in a campaign, everyone will give a -3 modifier so War level is unlikely...)

 

[Locutus9956]

Again I agree to an extent that poeple are overeacting but if a fleet utterly DOMINATES at 5pt raid then mayhaps its time to change the tourney rules away from that level every game?

Now as I've said a hundred times now I dont think the Gaim are unbeatable or even necessarily overpowered (and frankly I dont see the emines even in large numbers as a SERIOUS anti ship threat, theyer at best a nuiscance. The only problem I have with them is they make playing the fighter swarm too easy by cleaing the skies far too effectively. Just make it a little harder for the Gaim to get their fighters in there, not much mind you, just a little, and I'd be happy.

 

[Da Boss]

Dave, Most fleets have a long ranged weapon on their ships by raid level so will be able to engage at long range (at least by turn 2) on a normal sized board. The ones that dont are oftain rediculously fast and so can catch up with the Gaim ships.
You also have to take into account that few tables are more than 4-5' accross. add in deployment zones and even if the Gaim deploy at the back of the table they'll normaly be within 'normal' weapons range in under 3 turns.

hmm true - although all my best and fastest ships will be probably dead and / or boarded by then but I will certainly be trying the the charge tactic next time I play! and taking advantage of the terrain!

 

[MongooseMatt]

Ok matt, if you want to just clip the one part of my statement, fine. The fact is that even if you take an all hull 6 fleet, between the e-mines, and the fact that the defender will have almost no defense against the fighter swarm, you will lose. Yep, you will do 10-11 points of damage at range 40 per turn with your e-mines while running away from your opponent and keeping out of range of your opponents long range firepower. So what about the 38 damage or so against hull 4? or 26 damage or so vs hull 5. This and you havent even factored in 1 shot with any fighters. The fact is because the gaim ships never have to close with the enemy with it's long range turreted weapons, it doesn't mean alot when comparing the damage that other ships can do when the cant get in range........

Well, to be fair, I think we can discount the E-Mines against a Hull 6 fleet. However, against more balanced enemies, you are still going to run into problems. Once again, 26 damage (actually 22-23, after Bulkhead hits are taken out) is not going to overly bother a predominantly Hull 5 fleet. Yes, Hull 4 fleets will get hit hard, but they will have more ships and, at the end of the day, the whole function of Hull 4 is to take more damage! They get other trade offs instead. . .

Where people are falling down at the moment is with the fighters, and the inability to construct a solid fighter screen that does not just get e-mined out of existence (which is actually not a bad strategy, if your Hull 4 ships are surviving instead), or simply overwhelmed. In the latter case, they are at least delaying the Gaim for a turn or two - which, incidentally, is _precisely_ what the two Gaim players did to each other in the tournament.

The Gaim are, in a way, a strawman fleet. If you destroy their fighters or, in the very least, give them a serious smacking to reduce their numbers to manageable levels, they _will_ lose. Once those swarms have gojne, the Gaim have very little to back it up.

In other words, a battle with the Gaim will not be resolved at long ranges - it will be done in the middle of the table, just like it is when fighting most other fleets. The difference is the nature of the enemy you fight.

Have to say, quite enjoying these discussions

 

[H]

Again I agree to an extent that poeple are overeacting but if a fleet utterly DOMINATES at 5pt raid then mayhaps its time to change the tourney rules away from that level every game?

Now as I've said a hundred times now I dont think the Gaim are unbeatable or even necessarily overpowered (and frankly I dont see the emines even in large numbers as a SERIOUS anti ship threat, theyer at best a nuiscance. The only problem I have with them is they make playing the fighter swarm too easy by cleaing the skies far too effectively. Just make it a little harder for the Gaim to get their fighters in there, not much mind you, just a little, and I'd be happy.

ok then. IS ACTA purely a tourney game? no it is not. the game can be played as a campaign, or any number of one off games at varying levels. this is where different fleets strengths and weaknesses apply. Now then I agree that all tournesy being 5 point raid, does favour certain fleetswho will excel at that level. But changing one fleet is the wrong answer, what is needed is a more varieable and perhaps inovative approach to tourneys, which means different levels of battle can be played, meaning the Raid strong fleet isn't going to get an easy ride.

therefore, is it best to look at "how to implement a balanced tourney" or continue with "Gaim are broken"

I think ideas for new types of Tourney will be more productive and avoid the usual over reactions we get on fleet issues!

 

[Davesaint]

Dave, Most fleets have a long ranged weapon on their ships by raid level so will be able to engage at long range (at least by turn 2) on a normal sized board. The ones that dont are oftain rediculously fast and so can catch up with the Gaim ships.
You also have to take into account that few tables are more than 4-5' accross. add in deployment zones and even if the Gaim deploy at the back of the table they'll normaly be within 'normal' weapons range in under 3 turns.

The official table size is 4 feet deep and 6 feet across. There is plenty of running room, especially if you win the deployment and make your opponent set up first.

As far as ships that have short ranged weapons being fast, true, but they also tend to be small in size.

Of course the Rohric is slow and short ranged......


Dave