Future of MGT-Aids

[GamerDude]

The MGT-Aids list exists to provide hosting for fan created Mongoose Aids materials of all types. BUT, for many, Yahoo! is evil, or they have problems accessing it.

I don't have a problem with this as I myself have similar issues with certain sites, forums, etc. on the web

So, there are some options and I'm opening up to the Mongoose Traveller community to get feedback.

I've had offers to host the files, with varying methods for posting new material.
I've been investigating getting my own hosting where I can have installed forum software which has a file area that I can give members the right to upload files.
I have some options to move the list to somewhere else like Google Groups etc.

So, what would everyone like. I have three basic choices in the poll - I didn't include moving to another elist because that sounds like just changing which list host site people don't like.

Thank you.

 

[zero]

I chose the bottom option as it gives you more freedom, plus having a forum is a really good way to keep track on what members thoughts are regarding certain issues.

I would at least join the forum if you go with this plan.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I actually picked number 2, but seem to be in the minority.

Rather than create yet another Traveller site, why not find someone with an existing site and have them host it for you? I'm pretty sure you could find a neutral site that would let you do it for free (hopefully).

HOWEVER - I wouldn't do it if you can't keep creative control of the material. You don't want someone else telling you what you can and can't post on the MGT aids.

 

[phavoc]

There's nothing wrong with the Yahoo group. Sure, it can be annoying at times, but its free.

And I don't think we need another forum to keep track of! There are too many as it is! But we need at least two... as you don't want any one company or group to be able to control and dictate the criticism and input from the player community.

 

[apoc527]

Agree with phavoc. The Yahoo group works fine and I definitely don't need another forum.

 

[GypsyComet]

At least a few of the people who think Yahoo is evil are old net grumblers who dislike anything more user friendly than majordomo.

 

[BFalcon]

Not me - just remember the spam my mailbox got constantly (important when I run my own business, so an incoming mail *might* be important) and I also remember what happened to Geocities when Yahoo took it over... so I pretty much equate them with microsoft on the "trust them" stakes.

That having been said - if there's an alternative method for passing files to fellow gamers, I'm happy... provided permission's been given for the files to be made available outside the group, of course.

I've not voted either way - I feel it best for the group members to decide and for them to look at the membership numbers and ask themselves if there's not more people out there avoiding YG...

 

[GamerDude]

I've not voted either way - I feel it best for the group members to decide and for them to look at the membership numbers and ask themselves if there's not more people out there avoiding YG...

I appreciate everyone's comments and feedback.

BFalcon you've made a good point but if I may say that - the "list" is for everyone, it's purpose is to serve the community of players and GMs who are fans of MGT. It is *not* intended as a replacement or competitor to the MGP Forums or CotI over at Quicklink Interactive (or anywhere that is focused on a game system). Anyone could be a member just to the files area getting what they want and never even look at the forum part.

An important note here: If I were to migrate to a "forum" environment, the forum part would focus on discussing the items uploaded to the files area AND I would be looking to open up the site to support fan created forms materials etc for other games.

 

[BFalcon]

BFalcon you've made a good point but if I may say that - the "list" is for everyone, it's purpose is to serve the community of players and GMs who are fans of MGT. It is *not* intended as a replacement or competitor to the MGP Forums or CotI over at Quicklink Interactive (or anywhere that is focused on a game system). Anyone could be a member just to the files area getting what they want and never even look at the forum part.

An important note here: If I were to migrate to a "forum" environment, the forum part would focus on discussing the items uploaded to the files area AND I would be looking to open up the site to support fan created forms materials etc for other games.

That's fair enough - but I feel self concious if I just poach files and don't contribute, either in discussions or in the files themselves... but then that's probably just me.

As for the opening up of the forums to other games, I suggest you make it clear to people that they leave their grievances with various publishers at the door - or you could have violent arguments where some are concerned - just about every roleplayer has at least one publisher they would like to see bite the big one... I, myself, reeeallly detest D&D 4E, for example, so it would be a good idea to discourage discussions about it and confine the forums to discussions on the materials.

Of course, you can always have a "mosh pit" forum area where people are allowed to vent and put a discretionary advisory warning on it... I've seen that done and it works well sometimes to relieve tension, but it can also lead to a few hurt feelings (although less than a general forum argument does, I think). You'd only need to remove anything that was illegal, used excessive language or defamatory to the companies themselves you do need to cover yourself legally, I think - just in case).

 

[zero]

^ I feel uncomfortable giving my name out online and find uploading a hassle, but I have alot of ideas and campaign notes that would be fine for forum-posts and would by me being the author and allowing it, be fine for free use.

Just look at the work I put in with my old Aliens in Traveller thread. Thats why I think a forum would be a good idea. Also having your own site gives more creative freedom (however, no to those banner ads that lead to viruses that you can find on most wikis these days -including the Trav one- I hate those things even if they do apparently bring in revenue).

 

[GypsyComet]

That's fair enough - but I feel self concious if I just poach files and don't contribute, either in discussions or in the files themselves... but then that's probably just me.

Not just you, but not everyone, either. A lot of us *like* to write, concoct, draw and display our efforts for the benefit of others. When I had a site up, I liked the occasional feedback, but wasn't ready to host active discussions. Of course, we had GEnie and the early MLs, then CotI and SJG, then here, and now other fora, for that.

As for the opening up of the forums to other games, I suggest you make it clear to people that they leave their grievances with various publishers at the door - or you could have violent arguments where some are concerned - just about every roleplayer has at least one publisher they would like to see bite the big one... I, myself, reeeallly detest D&D 4E, for example, so it would be a good idea to discourage discussions about it and confine the forums to discussions on the materials.

Of course, you can always have a "mosh pit" forum area where people are allowed to vent and put a discretionary advisory warning on it... I've seen that done and it works well sometimes to relieve tension, but it can also lead to a few hurt feelings (although less than a general forum argument does, I think). You'd only need to remove anything that was illegal, used excessive language or defamatory to the companies themselves you do need to cover yourself legally, I think - just in case).

There are big generalized games fora out there, but none of them has that generalized coverage as their big selling point. The most successful are at least somewhat specialized in their success. One example is EMWorld. They cheerfully host any and all RPG discussion, but anything but D&D is just mutterings around the edges. Quite a lot of the company specific miniatures fora will have a side area for "everything else", with the benefit that like-hobbied people can discuss just about anything without diluting the company's presense.

Traveller, like D&D, has fallen into a realm of over-specialization. This is due to a combination of extremely partisan reactions to each and every edition of the games, and to how different those editions are from each other. The partisan divisions have been running deep and hot within Traveller since the launch of TNE, but started when MegaTraveller launched. Without going into the specific causes (to keep this on-topic) the result is dozens of specialized MLs, a separate forum (or more than one) for each edition that has been in print within the last decade (most of which claim to be edition blind but often have partisan leanings), and (at one time) a veritable ocean of individual resource websites. Back to those later.

What does Traveller need in the context of this discussion? The combination of file storage and discussion can be done in several mixtures. CotI does it, though their files area is frightful to navigate and takes a back seat to the forums and company functions. Yahoo Groups do it, but don't couple discussions to files; the two are separate functions within each Group.

General discussion is, I think, well handled by existing MLs and fora.

Facebook and Google+ are all discussion and no file storage beyond images, so they're out.

Break CotI's files/Gallery section out by itself, or emulate CMoN original Gallery function, or even DeviantArt, and you get about the right mix for a site that concentrates on contributed *stuff* and the discussion of that stuff. None of these sites appear to have really good cross-indexing, however. Ideally this kind of site can be browsed by contributor, topic, or "drunkards walk", and by text or visually.

 

[BP]

Optimally separate the 'front' and 'back' ends:

• A public file host with free/unregistered direct link access (these are becoming quite common).
• A 'front end' managed site with contents displayed as simple thumbnails, with link to D/L, comments and a classification and rating system...

The first provides more assured continuity in the event the main site goes away and allows anyone to upload their content and it not actually be hosted on the main site, which more likely has bandwidth and content restrictions if free and public.

The 'managed' front end allows all content to be screened prior to display.

I presume the manager could also be spending effort:

• D/Ling content first to verify, backup (in event of public host disappearing)
• Creating thumbnails (using default ones when not possible)
• Putting in broad categories (or let that be done by tagging, meaning same file in multiple places)
• Tagging compatibilities (and game edition, etc.)
• Commenting if desired
• Credit tagging
• Versioning*
• Linking to prior versions and alternate versions; etc.

*Every piece of pretty should be tagged (site unique version) for ease of downloaders and commenting - but alternate versions should be accessed by drill down (i.e. not cluttering everything). A real bonus would be tracking what files and versions have been D/Led and rated by user (requires site to track, optimally - cookies would work, but be suboptimal).

The 'software' to do this really isn't much (except that last tracking stuff) - most of it is just straight HTML and work on the manager's part in combination with a site that offers comment pages.

 

[GamerDude]

Wow... not just 'really good' but GREAT points. I have thought of many of the points made and some I didn't.

Let me just hit a few:
1) Favorite Version/System - No place for that except as BFalcon said, in the "Mosh Pit" (and I will call it that!).
2) The host I've chosen is UNLIMITED for bandwidth, drive space, MySql Databases, etc.
3) I'm very sensitive to files area organization, as I feel the Yahoo Group has shown. - I want everything to be found rather quickly and the top level will probably be "game - version" so "D&D 3.x" and "D&D 4th" as separate categories at the top.
4) Uploading without "signing up" - not going to happen, I feel there has to be some control over people uploading stuff. Since I'm paying cold-hard-cash to do this there will **NEVER EVER** be banner ads forced on us. I will **NEVER EVER** try to cover the cost by accepting banner ads.
5) Downloading without "signing up" - if that is possible in the software, I will *consider* it.
6) Getting the word out... I will be submitting to search engines, posting the news where I can... and hope the fan base will spread the word too (the more minds contributing on fan material, the better).

That's the stuff off the top of my head. My wife is hasseling me to go get some Bacon, Egg n Cheese bisquets from Carl's Jr and I'd better do it before she "hurts me" (I.E. gives me some more "honeydo's"

Again thanks for the great feedback.

 

[Jacqual]

I love yahoo groups, I even started my own group. The problem I have is I can no longer log into yahoo to access any of the groups I'm a member of. True there are some issues with the spammers at times but all in all I like yahoo. The problem I have is I made the mistake of logging in 1 time with my facebook info, which caused my problems. Yahoo has stated they are working on the groups issue that facebook members are facing.

 

[GamerDude]

123 - 4 - 56
Checking in on the poll I see 50% for option A, 17% for B and 33% for C with 24 votes total. Not a bad showing overall.

While the decision to use Yahoo! was because of how quick and easy it is to use etc, there things I wish I could do with it. A big desire I have is to provide the same support to other games I enjoy in the same way I enjoy MGT. All too many times I've seen posts somewhere about "has someone done 'X' before, and can I get a copy" or "Yeah I made this neat thing but if you want it PM me and I'can email it.

I want a way to do for many games what MGT-Aids does for Mongoose Traveller. And I want to do this without the politics/powermembernazi assaults I've seen on some forums, and do this focusing on the fan created material without those discussions getting drowned out by discussion of the game itself.

I'm currently researching hosting solutions that offer the kind of forum/file management software I want - and with unlimited Storage, unlimited Bandwidth each month, pretty much unlimited everything (and ad-free). If I find the right one, I'll have a set of forums focused on fans making aids helps (and maybe adventures), those seeking something finding it and able to talk about it. There will be clear definite rules about system/version bashing (saying once "I didn't like RPG 87th edition" is fine) but the focus is on making character sheets, combat flowcharts, fan made ships etc... discussion of the actual game will be gently pushed back to the official forums supporting the game.

Again, thanks for all the interest AND willingness to provide some feedback to me.
AL B. [B-)

 

[IanBruntlett]

Personally I find the Yahoo web site clumsy to use.

 

[Jame Rowe]

I would stick with the Yahoo group. But I haven't looked at it in quite some time.

 

[GamerDude]

Personally I find the Yahoo web site clumsy to use.

While I appreciate the comment, honestly it tells me nothing. So, in the interest of improving the group to make it "less clumsy" I'm tossing your comment back at ya with two questions...

"HOW" is it clumsy to you?
What are your suggestions to "FIX" it?

I look forward to your thoughts and ideas.

 

[IanBruntlett]

While I appreciate the comment, honestly it tells me nothing. So, in the interest of improving the group to make it "less clumsy" I'm tossing your comment back at ya with two questions...

OK. In the process of getting information for this reply, I think I might have come to terms with Yahoo. One problem I had was that in order to join as a member, I needed a Yahoo email address. That address died (don't know why). Went into Yahoo configuration screens and nominated a different email account. Rebooted and attempted to get in using a more up to date email address and I was able to download files.

"HOW" is it clumsy to you?

The screens are a mass of information - although you could call them "feature rich"
I'm never too sure if I'm logged in or not. Tried downloading some files today and it worked.

What are your suggestions to "FIX" it?

Make it clear whether or not you are logged in.

I look forward to your thoughts and ideas.

OK. Hope this helps.

Ian

 

[GamerDude]

Thanks IanBruntlett (Ian) for the info. Unfortunately these are features of/problems with Yahoo!. I even find myself occasionally going to the site, not able to get into any of the areas (files, Post, etc). yet in the top left corner it says "Hi Al!" as if I'm logged in.

So, I know that I'm fully "logged-in" if I have links down the left side instead of just plain text.

I know the interface is cluttered, Yahoo! worries so much about the "user experience" (without asking users what they want) that they operate under a "the more we cram onto the screen, the better it is" philosophy.

What I can control are the colors, and the folder structure for the files area. Actually there Yahoo! did a decent job for a moderator to make directories and move files around - once you realize how it works.

Ian, you've also hit on the head why I'm looking at setting up my own "forums" with a healthy files system - clarity in your status (logged in or not), easy to find files for a particular game system, discuss the various aids (and what you hope someone has created), etc.