Fuel scoop usage
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Dave Chase
Mongoose
GamerDude said:
Which makes 2 of you that don't.
There is a difference between posting (reprinting) something that is listed as a copyright and something that has an inclusion of nothing of my work may be reprinted. Discussion someone's work does not require the quoting of that work only referencing that work. There is a clear difference.
Secondly, it is obvious that neither of you have personal experience in dealing with nor have had your own work used with out your premission.
IP, copyright and such are a big deal. And here you both are attempting to belittle an individual is doing what the law requires, asking (nicely) first that you stop, and who knows if they will continue or not with further actions.
Both of you have at various times taken a stance on how others are treated and yet you both are currently dishing out that same style of treatment.
And you, Capt Jack, of all people should step down and away. After you, via PM and such, attacked me over releasing T5 information, of which I did have copyright law to back up how and what I posted, you now take the high road that's it's OK, to post someone else's work just because they make reference (not quoted) to it.
IANAL but I have dealt with both sides of copyright and IP issues in legal and procedural manner. That includes internationally besides United States.
Dave Chase
Since when is messageboard posts copyright protected? Copyright only applies to PUBLISHED material, not posted.
So unless what is posted is also work you have in a published, money making format, good luck on defending it as copyrighted. Because a key to successful copyright infringement is financial damage. IF you don't make money off of it, one of the key components to infringement is missing.
So if your quoted, and your not making money off of it, and the person doing the quoting is also not making money off of it, good luck wasting a courts time.
So unless what is posted is also work you have in a published, money making format, good luck on defending it as copyrighted. Because a key to successful copyright infringement is financial damage. IF you don't make money off of it, one of the key components to infringement is missing.
So if your quoted, and your not making money off of it, and the person doing the quoting is also not making money off of it, good luck wasting a courts time.
Treebore said:
What do you think "posting" is exactly? IP ownership has nothing to do with money or commercial gain - it's a basic recognition that anything that a person has created themselves is their intellectual property, and it's up to the creators to determine how it is distributed, not some other random jackass on the internet.
Dave Chase
Mongoose
Treebore said:
In essence you would be correct until IP went to court (and you can thank or curse WotC for that). Since then IP and copyright does not have to prove that money was made or loss. Nor does the IP have to be something you can hold in your hands.
Say that you make a card game and do such at your cost, don't charge anybody anything and give it away to any who ask for a copy. You will more than likely receive a cease and desist letter from WotC/Hasbro. Especially if the game becomes popular.
Also note that 'quoting' is different than 'referring to'. Maybe not to you (the individual) but to court it is a very clear difference.
Dave Chase
CosmicGamer
Mongoose
If the link I went to is correct, the post by EDG quoted two other people and also referenced Transhuman Space and Traveller. Couldn't this be considered a derivative work and be uncopywritable?
Dave Chase said:
We aren't talking IP here, we are talking about someone yammering about this and that on the internet. Posts on internet do not consitute "works" covered by copyright. Unless its a "Article" of their own original work, not when commmenting about someone elses game or their rules. If anyone owns "copyright" on content discussed on this board it would be Mongoose, since every post I have seen discusses Mongoose's game system, nothing original done by any poster.
But I am certainly not going to waste my time searching this forum seeing if anyone other than Mongoose can claim ownership. If this guy wants to think he owns his posts, more power to him.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
captainjack23 said:
For reference Dave, That's the entirety of my attack on EDG.
In fact, I thought his response was pretty reasonable, and so, I decided not to belabor it for the sake of arguing. Put in the context of an image, it clicked for me where he was coming from, and answered the question.
Perhaps I could have said "okay, good point", but there was also the goal of moving the thread onwards. And frankly, I went to bed, and had life to enjoy today.
No, not at all. Thats an extremely inflamatory take on what I wrote. I made a hypothetical suggestion, which EDG pointed out was insupportable. Which I then didn't answer. Why are you belaboring it ? Do you never change your mind; do you respond to every single post every single time ?
As to the attack I made on you, I'm kind of hurt that you have dredged this up again. To cut to the chase, I was wrong back then, you were right. I apologized for my tone and my mistake . Have I continued to harrass you about this issue ?
I'd also point out that it was a private disagreement, and while you are quite within your rights to make it public, its kind of rude, and impossible for me to prove or disprove, anyway; it also doesn't motivate me to contact you privately, as I did, if I have a problem with you.
Obviously you can keep holding it against me if you want, but the very conciliatory response you sent me afterwards is kind of confusing. Have you never made a response that you later regretted ? What did you then do ?
I still think that it would be easier and less contentious all around if one simply posts ones own work in the forum one is making the point in. Obviously the good Doctor disagrees with that, to which I can say, "okay, whatever".
Which is my whole take on this at this point. "okay, whatever". I have some philosophical disagreement with what is claimed here, but I'm pretty sure neither EDG or anyone else here (including, apparently yourself) has absolutely any interest in how my theories of fair use, information freedom, IPization of shared content and etc. relate to his sig.
Perhaps you might note that of all of EDGs complaints about me, quoting off site posts has never been one of them.
This is a thread about fuel, right ?
Edits: Stooopid english verb agreement....issues.....
Treebore said:
Read that link I posted again. Or even for a first time.
And actually, there's nothing in the terms and conditions of joining this forum that allows Mongoose to claim ownership on anything that any user posts here.
Like everything legal, your own personal opinion of how IP laws/copyright works (or should work) is irrelevant - the only thing that matters is how the law actually works. And your assumptions (and GamerDude's assumptions) about this subject have been shown to be very incorrect.
At the end of the day, if anyone explicitly says that you can't copy or quote anything they write on this board anywhere else (as I have said), then that means those posts are not in the public domain. And that means that if you do copy or quote what they say anywhere else, you are violating that person's copyright. That much is very clear, and it's all there in that link I posted.
captainjack23 said:
a) copy/pasting a link takes less time than copy/pasting a wall of text.
b) that's what links are for - so people don't have to copy things from one place to another
. And it would have still been a thread about fuel, if Gamerdude hadn't decided to copy/paste my posts (which, I note are still posted despite my requests to remove the (incorrectly) quoted passages).
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
[/quote]EDG said:captainjack23 said:
a) copy/pasting a link takes less time than copy/pasting a wall of text.
b) that's what links are for - so people don't have to copy things from one place to another
Just so that we are clear here (are you reading , Dave ?
) : Yes, EDG, good point. Me, I'd rather avoid this kind of problem, but then, that's my call on the convenience vs annoyance/clarity issue.
Dave Chase
Mongoose
Capt Jack, Your apology was accepted then and is still accepted but, I posted something like my comments publicly because it seems you did not truly understand back then, IF you did, it wouldn't have happened again (publicly) with another individual. And again you (and others) had to be corrected.
Worse others believed you, which they in turn made more assuming posts.
Sorry, if I 'hurt' you and no I don't hold it against you.
The problem comes from you basing things off what you assume and making them fact. Works for in a game but not in real life.
So, please in the future (and this applies to all who consider posting thoughts as facts) make sure of your claims of things right or wrong.
Or state something like, IMO, this is what it is.
At least then those who do know, will most likely take that into consideration instead of trying to point out how wrong you were/are.
Please also note, I didn't correct those who were mistaken until it started going to far. Nor do I bother replying to every post.
Dave Chase
Worse others believed you, which they in turn made more assuming posts.
Sorry, if I 'hurt' you and no I don't hold it against you.
The problem comes from you basing things off what you assume and making them fact. Works for in a game but not in real life.
So, please in the future (and this applies to all who consider posting thoughts as facts) make sure of your claims of things right or wrong.
Or state something like, IMO, this is what it is.
At least then those who do know, will most likely take that into consideration instead of trying to point out how wrong you were/are.
Please also note, I didn't correct those who were mistaken until it started going to far. Nor do I bother replying to every post.
Dave Chase
GamerDude
Cosmic Mongoose
Y'know...
For me the center of all this crap (and yes it's stupid crap) is the problem back when EDG first got onto the forums and caused a big ruckus... going on how he was chased off/asked to leave/voluntarily left the CotI forums for problems/disagreements there, then really badmouthing Marc Miller with large amounts of venom and such.
Then suddenly his "no posting my stuff elsewhere" showed up in his signature on many forums (its the same on SFRPG, and I'm going to guess on SPICA, etc.) I'm guessing that some of the things said here got cross-posted to like CotI causing problems or whatever.
Personally I don't care what gets posted where, I just think the "don't post anything I say here anywhere else" is just an ignorant way of saying "I've been held accountable by things I've said in the past so now I won't let you do that so I don't have to worry about what I say".
Forum posts aren't articles, and typically they are either opinions or a rehash of what someone else said/came up with. You don't discuss the plotlines in the latest issues of Spiderman then cry "wait that's MY IP don't quote it, nope permission not given". Why? It's already someone else's IP that YOU are talking about how can you claim the post is your IP.
We have someone here local who ran two elists... this is back when the site was "elists.com" before it was bought a few times and became Yahoo! Groups. He claimed the IDEA for a fen elist was his IP (he copied the idea from an existing list and even asked for that lists membership roster to invite them all), that the files given by then elists.com telling what features were offered (modified slightly for his rules) were also his IP and got his friends to go after anyone who challenged his "IP" with a similar elist etc.
So, all this claiming on gaming oriented forums about posts being IP and restricting quoting or cross-posting what someone put up on a forum to me is crap, utter hubris and crap.
For me the center of all this crap (and yes it's stupid crap) is the problem back when EDG first got onto the forums and caused a big ruckus... going on how he was chased off/asked to leave/voluntarily left the CotI forums for problems/disagreements there, then really badmouthing Marc Miller with large amounts of venom and such.
Then suddenly his "no posting my stuff elsewhere" showed up in his signature on many forums (its the same on SFRPG, and I'm going to guess on SPICA, etc.) I'm guessing that some of the things said here got cross-posted to like CotI causing problems or whatever.
Personally I don't care what gets posted where, I just think the "don't post anything I say here anywhere else" is just an ignorant way of saying "I've been held accountable by things I've said in the past so now I won't let you do that so I don't have to worry about what I say".
Forum posts aren't articles, and typically they are either opinions or a rehash of what someone else said/came up with. You don't discuss the plotlines in the latest issues of Spiderman then cry "wait that's MY IP don't quote it, nope permission not given". Why? It's already someone else's IP that YOU are talking about how can you claim the post is your IP.
We have someone here local who ran two elists... this is back when the site was "elists.com" before it was bought a few times and became Yahoo! Groups. He claimed the IDEA for a fen elist was his IP (he copied the idea from an existing list and even asked for that lists membership roster to invite them all), that the files given by then elists.com telling what features were offered (modified slightly for his rules) were also his IP and got his friends to go after anyone who challenged his "IP" with a similar elist etc.
So, all this claiming on gaming oriented forums about posts being IP and restricting quoting or cross-posting what someone put up on a forum to me is crap, utter hubris and crap.
GamerDude said:
You, Al Beddow. The centre of all this stupid crap is you.
Because you can't get over the fact that - for whatever reason, I have no idea - you don't like me. You have taken every opportunity over the past two years to slag me off (and have created more opportunities to do so too), or tell me (incorrectly) what I'm thinking, or take stupid little potshots and digs at me with absolutely no reason or provocation at all. All because you took offence at something - god knows what - that I said (or how I said it) years ago.
Whatever the reason, you've decided to engage in a puerile, spiteful, two-year long vendetta/campaign of harrassment against me that has poisoned and derailed the majority of threads that I have been involved in while I've been here. And you show no sign of stopping either. I'm pretty sure everyone is sick to death of it though. All I want to do is talk about Traveller here, and that's all everyone else wants to do - kindly get over it and let everyone do that.
If you really are "tired of all the stupid egos and negative attitudes" then take a look in the mirror and stop being such a hypocrite, because you're the only one here with those.
EDG said:
You know, there are actually people around who know what they are talking about, and you are not one of them. I have been to court over copyright issues and you know what I learned? That no one "knows" what the law really means. The lawyers present their arguments and then the judge decides whose argument is best supported by that judges interpretation of the laws as written.
So you can attempt to keep being an "internet expert", and I'll just keep on going based on what I learned from real life experiences from real lawyers and judges.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Dave,
I'm glad you're so concerned. However, I'm not the poster child for bad IP advice that you seem to think I am. Start there, and we can talk. Otherwise, I'm just a stalking horse, and I'm outta here.
Reread my post if you must. Note that I am talking about the behavior (linking to ones own post) not the IP issue.
Here's the sum of my bad advice, if you must : I feel that the combination of no quoting requests plus placing an offsite link as a comment into a discussion creates a situation where I don't see how I can comply with the "no offsite quoting" request: see, the comment I want to quote locally is offsite.
And yes, I do try to comply with those requests, see, so I'm a bit antsy about a situation where responses become impossible without tremendous rigamarole.
So: if you want control of your IP (and I'm fine with that for an individual) just take the extra effort and post it in the discussion you bring it up. If your IP is worth preserving, it's worth not screwing around with links and etc that can easily cause exactly this problem, even without the past history that is bleeding out on the floor here.
I'd ask EDG how the thinks is best to deal with it, but this is a thread about fuel.
As to the rest, I'm not going to dive into the shark tank over the issue of EDG's sig, which is an issue that I could not possibly care less about.
Now. We're done, Right ? There are other people here you can teach IP law to. Have at em, tiger.
I'm glad you're so concerned. However, I'm not the poster child for bad IP advice that you seem to think I am. Start there, and we can talk. Otherwise, I'm just a stalking horse, and I'm outta here.
Reread my post if you must. Note that I am talking about the behavior (linking to ones own post) not the IP issue.
Here's the sum of my bad advice, if you must : I feel that the combination of no quoting requests plus placing an offsite link as a comment into a discussion creates a situation where I don't see how I can comply with the "no offsite quoting" request: see, the comment I want to quote locally is offsite.
And yes, I do try to comply with those requests, see, so I'm a bit antsy about a situation where responses become impossible without tremendous rigamarole.
So: if you want control of your IP (and I'm fine with that for an individual) just take the extra effort and post it in the discussion you bring it up. If your IP is worth preserving, it's worth not screwing around with links and etc that can easily cause exactly this problem, even without the past history that is bleeding out on the floor here.
I'd ask EDG how the thinks is best to deal with it, but this is a thread about fuel.
As to the rest, I'm not going to dive into the shark tank over the issue of EDG's sig, which is an issue that I could not possibly care less about.
Now. We're done, Right ? There are other people here you can teach IP law to. Have at em, tiger.
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