FTL Communication?

[Sigtrygg]

I can help you out with the reference if you like

CT '77 edition LBB2 page 18:

Other types of missiles are possible(for example, jump capable message torpedoes, or bombs for attacks against planetary surfaces)

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

The thing to remember about interstellar communications, regardless of the actual method, is that the speed of communication will have an effect on the centralization of control of interstellar organizations - when communication between Headquarters and Ish Kabibble (or the Colonial Office and the viceroy/governor at Ish Kabibble) can take a month or more for a simple exchange of basic information, the people "on the spot" at Ish Kabibble are going to have a lot more leeway and autonomy than if Headquarters/Colonial Office can send a request in the morning and expect a response before dinner that same day. Granted, HQ/CO doesn't have to exercise control - they might, as a matter of policy, devolve control to the lower levels and leave the people "on the spot" with a great degree of autonomy - but the potential for that control is there.

More succinctly - the faster you can get help or advice from 'home' when you need it, the easier it is for 'home' to impose unwanted 'help' or orders on you.

This is true. very true. So I'll keep my comm torpedoes rare and expensive, so I won't upset the balance too much

I can help you out with the reference if you like

CT '77 edition LBB2 page 18:

Other types of missiles are possible(for example, jump capable message torpedoes, or bombs for attacks against planetary surfaces)

And there we have it, perfect! Thank you! Hmm... These message torpedoes, hypercomm drones or whatever I'm gonna call them, could end up very dangerous, if one was to strap a warhead to it... Interstellar cruiser missiles...

Nah, I'll technobabble it to be impossible to send along anything of 'significant mass'. And the reactor can't be turned into a bomb because it... Melts upon 'normal space re-entry' due to the extreme stress of... yeah, something like that

 

[F33D]

And there we have it, perfect! Thank you! Hmm... These message torpedoes, hypercomm drones or whatever I'm gonna call them, could end up very dangerous, if one was to strap a warhead to it... Interstellar cruiser missiles...

Not so much. They have to come out of jump at least 100 diameters from a world and, where they come out is not precise. So, unless for the convenience of remotely attacking a lower tech world, they aren't a good military weapon.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

Warning… long post based on my understanding of the original concept for Traveller…
There is reason for jump space and x-boat systems.
When Traveller was first conceived, Mark Miller wanted it to be the wild west in space. He likened the 3 Imperium to “the pony express days of the Galaxy…” Mark wanted the “look and feel” of the mid-to late 1800’s with steam powered tramp freighters plying the far reaches of the world. It would take a weeks for a tramp freighter to travel from Europe to the far east, with many ports of call and adventure along the way… etc… Giving players the excitement and adventure and “grittiness” lost in a lot of the sci-fi settings of the time.
In concept, Traveller combined all these concepts set in the far future. (Star Trek was pitched as “Wagon Train to the stars”) for instance. I stopped playing Traveller in 1988-89 but picked it up again in 2000-2001. In that time there was a “shift” in the general fan base concept from “age of steam” to “age of sail”… why? Because transatlantic cables had already connected important cities by the mid-late 1800’s allowing telegraphs to send relatively instant communication, thus information delivered by ship (or horse) was a defunct idea… within the age of steam. True, rail systems and steam powered ships would carry messages and mail to cities and countries not yet “wired” to the early telegraph system, but instant communication was still in service during much of the age of steam.
But still Mark’s original concept persists within the core game mechanics. In fact the symbol of the x-boat service is a horse-like-thing…
So much for the short history as far as I’m aware of it… but I could always be wrong.
Back to the present, and your question.
Everyone before this post has done a great job describing why you cant send “energy/radio waves/meson communications” through jump space. I will only add one fine point. In jump space there MUST be a device continually maintaining the jump bubble. That device of course is the Jump Drive. The concept of Jump Space Travel within the Traveller game mechanics REQUIRE this. The ship, fuel tanks, power plant, (and people/cargo/computer messaging systems) etc… are simply along for the ride. Once the destination has been reached, the jump drive kicks in again, forcing the ship out of jump space, back into normal space as the jump bubble collapse. That’s why you can’t “beam” messages through Jump space.. or have “subspace communications” etc… there has to be a device to get you back into normal space.
IMTU I allow smaller frames than 100 tons (but not much) however the size of drives, power plants, etc… are based on 100 tons minimum. So a 60 ton hull would still require 10 tons of fuel for a jump 1, not 6 tons etc… (but these small ships are few and far between, not normally available on the open markets)
I forgot about the jump torpedoes… might have to revisit that again…
I did mention quantum entanglement ages ago on another thread, without much support… lol 
But if you like that idea, perhaps quantum entangled communications systems can link sector capitals to sector capitals for instance, the use normal x-boats to disseminate important messages throughout the rest of the sector. I’ve no idea how these quantum entangled communication systems would work or the costs, but it would be more than a loaf of bread…
IF you like that idea, the quantum-entangled communication systems could be analogous transoceanic cables. Thus, if you so chose, you can finally bring Marks original concept of future/sci-fi version of life, travel, and adventure in late 1800’s, into reality.

Jak

 

[dragoner]

Another good era to look at Traveller through is the early 19th century and the settlement of the Midwest, such as the Natchez Trace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natchez_Trace); which is rather natural, as Marc, Loren, etc. are all from the Midwest. Also there is the canal period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabash_and_Erie_Canal), with also stories of famous rough and tumble "Traders", such as William Digby, who founded the town where I live.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Warning… long post based on my understanding of the original concept for Traveller…
There is reason for jump space and x-boat systems.
When Traveller was first conceived, Mark Miller wanted it to be the wild west in space. He likened the 3 Imperium to “the pony express days of the Galaxy…” Mark wanted the “look and feel” of the mid-to late 1800’s with steam powered tramp freighters plying the far reaches of the world. It would take a weeks for a tramp freighter to travel from Europe to the far east, with many ports of call and adventure along the way… etc… Giving players the excitement and adventure and “grittiness” lost in a lot of the sci-fi settings of the time.
In concept, Traveller combined all these concepts set in the far future. (Star Trek was pitched as “Wagon Train to the stars”) for instance. I stopped playing Traveller in 1988-89 but picked it up again in 2000-2001. In that time there was a “shift” in the general fan base concept from “age of steam” to “age of sail”… why? Because transatlantic cables had already connected important cities by the mid-late 1800’s allowing telegraphs to send relatively instant communication, thus information delivered by ship (or horse) was a defunct idea… within the age of steam. True, rail systems and steam powered ships would carry messages and mail to cities and countries not yet “wired” to the early telegraph system, but instant communication was still in service during much of the age of steam.
But still Mark’s original concept persists within the core game mechanics. In fact the symbol of the x-boat service is a horse-like-thing…
So much for the short history as far as I’m aware of it… but I could always be wrong.
Back to the present, and your question.
Everyone before this post has done a great job describing why you cant send “energy/radio waves/meson communications” through jump space. I will only add one fine point. In jump space there MUST be a device continually maintaining the jump bubble. That device of course is the Jump Drive. The concept of Jump Space Travel within the Traveller game mechanics REQUIRE this. The ship, fuel tanks, power plant, (and people/cargo/computer messaging systems) etc… are simply along for the ride. Once the destination has been reached, the jump drive kicks in again, forcing the ship out of jump space, back into normal space as the jump bubble collapse. That’s why you can’t “beam” messages through Jump space.. or have “subspace communications” etc… there has to be a device to get you back into normal space.
IMTU I allow smaller frames than 100 tons (but not much) however the size of drives, power plants, etc… are based on 100 tons minimum. So a 60 ton hull would still require 10 tons of fuel for a jump 1, not 6 tons etc… (but these small ships are few and far between, not normally available on the open markets)
I forgot about the jump torpedoes… might have to revisit that again…
I did mention quantum entanglement ages ago on another thread, without much support… lol 
But if you like that idea, perhaps quantum entangled communications systems can link sector capitals to sector capitals for instance, the use normal x-boats to disseminate important messages throughout the rest of the sector. I’ve no idea how these quantum entangled communication systems would work or the costs, but it would be more than a loaf of bread…
IF you like that idea, the quantum-entangled communication systems could be analogous transoceanic cables. Thus, if you so chose, you can finally bring Marks original concept of future/sci-fi version of life, travel, and adventure in late 1800’s, into reality.

Jak

Thank you for the history lesson/theme clarification/Jump space explanation, very interresting read!

I took a quick look at the wikipedia page for quantum entangled communications system (QESC). that could be something... Only for a select few places, and to make things more interresting perhaps they can only transmit morse code, no video/audio... And if I understood correctly you'd need a separate pair of QESC units for each pair of locations that wish to communicate, yes? Every console can only communicate with one specific other console.

And then we'd have either one central hub that every QESC unit links to (Everything has to go through there, and then get routed to its destination. Control the main hub and you know 'everything') or something looking like an early version of the Internet... Now this is getting real interresting! I wasn't planning on making a big deal out of the FTL comms thing, just use it as a plot device, but now... Hmm...

A thought: these QESC thingies.... Nothing's forcing them to be stationary, or? I mean, some kind of REALLY important ship (Air Force One analogue, or some kind of Black Ops ship) *could* have a mobile transmitter...

 

[Reynard]

Personally I don't want Traveller to go the route of Star Trek. Originally, ship's and communications were fast considering the vastness of space. They made it clear though that it took a long time, hours days and weeks, to get messages around and starships would be on their own quite often. Captains were meant to figure it out for themselves without Starfleet always telling them what to do.

Now, not only is subspace communication instantaneous even in the early days, my god, ship travel over great distances is now instantaneous! No mystery, no adventure into the unknown. Star Trek became space fantasy.

Don't do that to Traveller. Let limits on communication and travel make the galaxy a bit more wilderness to explore and investigate. It feels more real that way.

 

[GypsyComet]

Personally I don't want Traveller to go the route of Star Trek.

This comes down to a "what is Traveller?" argument (and it has been one in the past, so let's keep it civil, please). There is a vocal and passionate set of the fanbase who equate the name of the game with the Imperiums setting and nothing else. At the same time, we have Mongoose's edition which pointedly made the core rule book as devoid of setting as it could manage.

Is there room for Trek-like RPGs using Traveller rules? Absolutely. We're supposedly getting one before too long in the SFB Universe.

Is there room in the Imperiums setting for FTLComm? Eh. Not so much, or at least not in the usual timeframe of -9700 to +1300 Imperial. Far enough into the Fourth Imperium doesn't bug me, though, because it doesn't affect the *Third* Imperium.

 

[Reynard]

Actually the Mongoose Prime Directive is truer to the old Star Trek than we have seen on tv and the movies. I have no trouble with that. I was using Trek as an example how a sci fi setting can lose it's personality to ridiculous ends.

Mongoose Traveller already offers alternate travel mechanics to those who seen to find the jump drive not their taste. I like Traveller because of the jump drive system. It's the game's signature for how it's universe works.

 

[locarno24]

Not so much. They have to come out of jump at least 100 diameters from a world and, where they come out is not precise. So, unless for the convenience of remotely attacking a lower tech world, they aren't a good military weapon.

Not to mention that, as noted, above, you won't have much of a sublight manouvring capability to manouvre in on a target once you do so. Dropping from 10G to 8G on a missile is enough to make point defence laughably easy (ortillery torps), so something that can barely lug itself along will really suffer.

This is true. very true. So I'll keep my comm torpedoes rare and expensive, so I won't upset the balance too much

If you stick to three principles - 'rare', 'expensive' and 'unreliable' then it's easy to understand why they don't change much. You still wouldn't use them for regular system-to-system communication, but for an emergency message buoy, or a war-warning beacon on a warship, I can see them getting used.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

It doesn't even have a manoeuvre drive, making the X-boat helpless once it has arrived in the destination system until a mothership (X-boat tender) comes along to refuel it and send it on its way.

I know this is "canon", but this sort of x-boat design has always seemed rather dubious, giving the x-boat a m-drive as well should speed up the movement of messages once the x-boat has dropped out of jump, as well as giving it some options if it ends up a long way out because of an inaccurate jump (let alone a misjump).

Anyway, IMTU, taking the J4 X-boat from p40 of Traders and Gunboats, add a Manoeuvre drive B, giving thrust 4, and taking up 3 dtons. The displacement is found by reducing the 6 weeks of fuel (rather excessive, unless you intend x-boats to bob around in space until someone comes, weeks later, for them) to 4 weeks (saving 4dt). The boat then costs an extra 8MCr.

Egil

 

[Reynard]

It seem to me the X-boat system is time tested and efficient. X-boats use well known routes so navigation is very precise. Misjumps should be next to unknown. The X-boat tender doesn't have to travel far even if it services a dozen x-boats because all Boats will jump out in the same location at reliable schedules even with known margins of error.

That's why X-boats are the most cost effective means for communications. Maneuver drives would be a useless resource. I'm sure they would remove the human factor if possible but it seems you can't trust a computer to adapt to any possible emergency. Remember the pilot is also navigator and engineer.

 

[simonh]

I know this is "canon", but this sort of x-boat design has always seemed rather dubious, giving the x-boat a m-drive as well should speed up the movement of messages once the x-boat has dropped out of jump, as well as giving it some options if it ends up a long way out because of an inaccurate jump (let alone a misjump).

Once out of jump the XBoat can transmit its messages by radio or comm laser, so the first point isn't an issue. IIRC the reason for e lack of M Drive was because using the original design system it physically wasn't possible to fit one in a 100 dton hull alongside a J6 drive.

Simon Hibbs

 

[F33D]

Once out of jump the XBoat can transmit its messages by radio or comm laser, so the first point isn't an issue. IIRC the reason for e lack of M Drive was because using the original design system it physically wasn't possible to fit one in a 100 dton hull alongside a J6 drive.

Simon Hibbs

Yes & yes.

I guess you could have a problem if an x-boat was WAY off target when arriving in system and didn't have a couple weeks worth of fuel & food. Although I'd put an ELB in them just as a last ditch safety measure.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

If you stick to three principles - 'rare', 'expensive' and 'unreliable' then it's easy to understand why they don't change much. You still wouldn't use them for regular system-to-system communication, but for an emergency message buoy, or a war-warning beacon on a warship, I can see them getting used.

This is exactly what I was thinking, yes.
In the end, I might not use it at all, nor the quantum thingie, but it's good to know they *could* be used, if I decide the plot needs them.

Thanks everyone for helping with my understanding of the Traveller universe! Those x-boat sound interresting as well, I hadn't heard of them.

 

[simonh]

I guess you could have a problem if an x-boat was WAY off target when arriving in system and didn't have a couple weeks worth of fuel & food. Although I'd put an ELB in them just as a last ditch safety measure.

That's a good point. Let's make this interesting.

You have a choice. Either you can outfit your X-Boat with a month or so of food and fuel, transponder, re-entry capsule, emergency low berth for longer term emergencies, etc. Or you can put in a very small manoeuver drive. What would be the highest priority extras?

Personally I'd go for an emergency low berth and as much extra food and fuel as I could pack in. The M-Drive would be a luxury.

On the other hand I think it would be a good idea to try and fit in a compact high efficiency low thrust propulsion system of some sort such as an ion drive if at all possible. The vehicle should be capable of some sort of limited manoeuvering, though it might not show up in the stats as a rated capability at the scale the game system works at.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Out of curiosity, are there any ships other than X-boats that lack maneouver drives?

Such as, perhaps, a long-range freighter that sacrifices sublight maneuverability in favor of longer-ranged jump drive and/or more cargo, at the expense of needing a tug-boat to get from jump point to planet.

 

[locarno24]

none in the 'official' designs.

It's always an option but only if you've got very reliable jump accuracy. I'd certainly never suggest it for passenger ships.

I could imagine it for 'mass cargo barges' - designed to heft lots of cargo through a short jump - but even then for the sake of not really all that much volume a manouvre-1 drive gives you a massive safety margin against misjump and makes things far easier to handle at the other end.

 

[Reynard]

I'm sure some passenger and/or freight business have or will try such a venture but it works best if also using a similar x-boat model, a mobile tender waits at the other end to retrieve, service and transfer passengers and cargo on a regular and scheduled route. Remember, there is no way to signal ahead if there are delays. You also need a vessel with similar passenger and cargo accommodations to also regularly ferry between the tender and final destination. Big problem is there will be a system in place for each business who think the costs will be justified by constant, regular traffic in their goods and services.

The x-boat model is run by an over-reaching government that controls the space between worlds as scheduled. The routes are meant to act as the most effective and efficient system possible. That's why the vehicles are stripped to the bone to get the greatest distance for the credit at lowest maintenance. Carrying only five and a quarter tons physical goods, it definitely is digital priority messaging. Farther, faster, cheaper. And remember this only extends to the x-boat route. Regular ships carry the bulk of package goods and even digital mail from the Xpress Line.

 

[F33D]

I guess you could have a problem if an x-boat was WAY off target when arriving in system and didn't have a couple weeks worth of fuel & food. Although I'd put an ELB in them just as a last ditch safety measure.

That's a good point. Let's make this interesting.

You have a choice. Either you can outfit your X-Boat with a month or so of food and fuel, transponder, re-entry capsule, emergency low berth for longer term emergencies, etc. Or you can put in a very small manoeuver drive. What would be the highest priority extras?

Personally I'd go for an emergency low berth and as much extra food and fuel as I could pack in. The M-Drive would be a luxury.

Considering it is just one person, food is a small volume. All the comm equip already exists on an X-boat. So, it is just a little extra fuel (enough to power LS) & the ELB. You could even just use Fast Drug. That would extend LS supplies enough for any in-system jump inaccuracies.