Freight/Passenger Income Too High?

[ReluctantHero]

In toying with a few shipping scenarios (in 2e) I am beginning to wonder if the income from shipping simple freight and passengers may not be too high. I'm wondering if I'm missing hidden costs (or some wonky personal math) that might be the issue.

For example, let's assume a Free Trader taking simple freight and passengers from A84A444-D to E768611-6 (a jump-1 route). Rolling for passengers and freight I come up with the following available:

• High Passengers 0
  Middle Passengers 9
  Basic Passengers 12
  Low Passengers 11
  
  Major Freight 6 (50 tons each)
  Minor Freight 12 (10 tons each)
  Incidentals 18 (4 tons each)

So I fill the cargo hold with 1 major freight lot and 3 minor adding up to 80 tons (80,000 credits). And I take on all available passengers for 55,800 (middle), 26,400 (basic), and 7,700 (low).

This is a grand total of 169,900 credits.

Now, we'll say the crew has a mortgage of 177,589 credits (6 shares combined from the crew) and a monthly maintenance cost of 3,778 credits. Assuming they can pull down even a modestly comparable haul for their second run of the month, they'll have enough funds left over for salaries and shares to give each crew member a rather staggering monthly income (in the ballpark of 20,000 per month, assuming a crew of 6 or 7). Even if 50% is held back for reinvestment, that leaves a pretty hefty profit, right? I mean, no need to attempt speculative trading if simple freight is that profitable.

I have to be missing something. What is it?

 

[-Daniel-]

The Free Trader does not have enough Staterooms for the passengers you took in your example. The 9 middle passengers is 9 staterooms, if we double up the crew of six that would be 3 staterooms, and the basic we can stack four to a room for 3 staterooms. That means you would need 15 staterooms. The Free Trader has 10 rooms, 5 short.

Now, we'll say the crew has a mortgage of 177,589 credits (6 shares combined from the crew) and a monthly maintenance cost of 3,778 credits.

If we look at one ship in the core rule book I can see that could hold the passengers and crew you stated is the subsidized liner at a cost of 161.523 MCr or 161,523,000 credits. Even at 100 years old giving a 50% discount that leaves us a cost of 80,761,500 credits. Each share is only worth 1,000,000 credits. So with the six shares and the 100 year discount the mortgage would be 74,761,500 or a monthly mortgage payment of just over 311k a month.

Just a thought, redo the math with less passengers on your free trader. Don't forget the life support, supplies, and berthing costs (pg 145) as well. Let's see where they fall at that point.

 

[ReluctantHero]

The Free Trader does not have enough Staterooms for the passengers you took in your example. The 9 middle passengers is 9 staterooms, if we double up the crew of six that would be 3 staterooms, and the basic we can stack four to a room for 3 staterooms. That means you would need 15 staterooms. The Free Trader has 10 rooms, 5 short.

Ah, yes. Did my math wrong on the rooms. So, assuming 3 rooms for crew (tight, but it's profit) that would be 7 middle passengers (43,000) and 11 low (7,700). This would make the new total for the run 131,100 credits. But...

I also figured the mortgage wrong. The value of a share is much higher than I recalled. For some reason I made it 1% the value of the ship rather than 1MCr even. So this would drop the mortgage of the Free Trader to 163,925.

So, still, with a moderately comparable run the second half of the month, the profit per crewmember is a pretty hefty 15,000 per month. Better, but still seems a bit high.

 

[-Daniel-]

I don't see where you included the fuel, life support, supplies, and berthing costs in this. While not a major cost, it all adds up. :mrgreen:

For example, each jump in fuel for the free trader would be 10,500. These costs all eat away at that "profit".

 

[ReluctantHero]

I don't see where you included the fuel, life support, supplies, and berthing costs in this. While not a major cost, it all adds up. :mrgreen:

For example, each jump in fuel for the free trader would be 10,500. These costs all eat away at that "profit".

See? I told you I was missing some costs.

Thanks.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Let's see:
Regular free trader, 25 jumps a year, 6 ship's shares.

Base cost: MCr 45 - 6 shares ≈ MCr 39.

Mortgage yearly: 39 / 240 × 12 = MCr 1,95
Maintenance year: 45 × 0,1% = MCr 0,045
Life Support year, crew: 3 × ( kCr 3 + kCr 2 ) × 12 = MCr 0,18
Crew, basic salaries: ( 6 × Cr 1000 ) × 12 = MCr 0,07 (the crew must live and eat before profit)
Fuel, year: 25 jump × 20 dT × Cr 100 = MCr 0,05 (buy unrefined, since the ship can refine)
Berthing: 25 × 3,5 × Cr 500 = MCr 0,04 (assume B port on average)

Yearly operating expense: MCr 1,95 + 0,045 + 0,18 + 0,07 + 0,05 + 0,04 ≈ MCr 2,35


Income:
Basic passenger does not require a stateroom, but merely 2 dT space and let's say share a stateroom for basic amenities. We have 10 staterooms, 3 for the crew, 1 for the basic passengers, leaves 6 for mid passengers. The basic passengers take 12 × 2 - 4[the stateroom] = 20 dT cargo space, leaving 60 dT cargo.

Mid: 6 × ( Cr 6200 - Cr 2000[life support] ) × 25 ≈ MCr 0,63
Basic: 12 × Cr 2200 × 25 ≈ MCr 0,66
Basic, life support: 1 × Cr 3000 × 25 + 12 × Cr 1000 × 25 ≈ - MCr 0,375
Low: 11 × ( Cr 700 - Cr 100[life support] ) × 25 ≈ MCr 0,165
Cargo: 60 × Cr 1000 × 25 = MCr 1,5

Total yearly income: MCr 0,63 + 0,66 - 0,375 + 0,165 + 1,5 = MCr 2,58

You have people packed in everywhere including the hold, with no separation between passengers and crew. If someone wanted to hijack the ship you would be an easy target.

Note that you have transported 11 × 25 = 275 low passengers per year, of which perhaps 275 × 3 / 36 ≈ 23 died. Additional costs are likely to apply... Is it really worth it?


So you make MCr 2,58 - 2,35 = MCr 0,23 per year if nothing goes wrong, no malfunctions, no over-zealous customs, no unruly passengers...

MCr 0,23 = Cr 230 000 is about 230000 / 12 / 6 ≈ Cr 3000 per crew member per month. If nothing ever goes wrong.


Is this Free Trader making excessive money? I do not think so...



Also note that without double occupancy for the crew and with regular salaries you would not turn any profit at all.

No passenger in this example makes more money per dT than freight, you would be better off ripping out most of the staterooms and enlarging the cargo hold.

 

[wbnc]

I've played this scenario a few times with Free Trader just running back and forth hops.with the listed rates it's tricky to actually make a sizable profit.

On paper, the income of a ship can look very different than it does in an actual game. Nothing ever goes exactly to plan. the merchant flubs a trade and the ship ends up on the losing side of the deal, an engine sucks up too much unrefined fuel and you have to lay to do repairs losing a run and increasing overhead costs.Some idiot in a refitted trader decides to play space pirate and punches holes in your fuel tank.You have to pay for the missiles and sand you spent driving off aforementioned low rent idiot.

The income over a year of these hops was respectable but not staggering. However our crew was just running straight pick up and delivery, not prospective trading. The income was lower since a good merchant could manage to score higher profits on occasion but the straight pick up and delivery seemed to make for a steadier income for our group...I personally blame the merchant of the party he had dice that were psychotic...and yeah that was my character and my least favorite set of dice.

Skimming fuel, and speeding up turn-around times to squeeze in extra hops was definitely a boost to income. one encounter with a hostile ship, and the resulting battle damage/ammo costs were enough to burn through a good portion of the profits.

I'll second the opinion that passengers are not as profitable as cargo.by removing the no crew staterooms It reduced life support costs and resulted in a steadier income. also in most games at least once or twice passengers bring their problems with them. Losing a month dealing with 'administrative issues' when a passenger happens to be a wanted criminal and you get caught with him on your ship livens up the game a bit. It gives the guy with the proper skill set something to do...but it drops the profit margin.

 

[AndrewW]

Losing a month dealing with 'administrative issues' when a passenger happens to be a wanted criminal and you get caught with him on your ship livens up the game a bit. It gives the guy with the proper skill set something to do...but it drops the profit margin.

No worse then customs impounding that illegal cargo. Or finding the illicit substance someone smuggled in one of your cargo's.

 

[wbnc]

Losing a month dealing with 'administrative issues' when a passenger happens to be a wanted criminal and you get caught with him on your ship livens up the game a bit. It gives the guy with the proper skill set something to do...but it drops the profit margin.

No worse then customs impounding that illegal cargo. Or finding the illicit substance someone smuggled in one of your cargo's.

Been there done that....In Real life too Nothing as fun as a squad of teenagers with assault rifles tearing your bunk apart after the finding a year old, dried out baggie of weed in the galley.then getting stopped and boarded three times in one month because someone on another boat was smuggling drugs out to the oil rigs in the supplies.

even minor interruptions can throw off a ships finances, losing a single run due to having customs pulling the ship in for a detailed inspection is enough to burn through cash reserves...and if your group isn't maintaining a rainy day fund to cover that sort of thing because they want to buy new toys...yeah that suit of Battledress looks good in the locker but the money sure would come in handy for paying fines and fees.