Four colors or black and white?

[Archer]

Printing technology has advanced a lot thanks to computers.

Then I suppose a computer generated color shouldn't use the 4 primary colour anymore because you should have any colour generated by a binary code as for a graphic card which shows millions of colours.
Where I want to lead is that if you compare a old VGA display (16 colours), then a SVGA one (256 colours) and then current display, you see that dots are totally merged in the colours.
That's what I meant in my initial post.

First of all, computers use _three_ primary colors, Red, Green and Blue to achieve 16.7 Million colors (the maximum number of variations the human eye can percieve). So four primary colors in printing is more than enough.

You can not compare the RGB technology of computer monitors and graphics cards to the CMYK used in printing. There is no way to even start comparing the two technologies.

CMYK uses Cyan, Magneta, Yellow and Black in combination to produce any color by mixing these primary colors. You can achieve _any_ color this way.

RGB uses three dots (both in CRT and LCD as well as Plasma screens) for the monitor. These three dots can be illuminated or not, and by combining them, or changing the intensity of their illumination, you fool the human eye to percieve the colors.
The 16.7 million colors (32 bit) computers use are just number the computer use to identify the settings it should use to produce the correct signal for each pixel in the image.

There are conversion tables for converting a specific color in RGB to CMYK and vice versa. However, this is what computers do for you in today's printing industry. They handle that conversion automatically.
But the printing itself uses a process of mixing the mentioned colors of CMYK into the desired color of whatever you are printing.

Trying to compare the two are like trying to compare a jet engine to a car engine. They both do the same job (propelling a vehicle) but they are two very different things.

 

[Osentalka]

Hello

Have seen the RQ online charactersheet and instantly made a better one myself.
Mongoose may be good in layouting nice looking books, but hell is this charctersheet crap.

drop me a line if you also want a better designed charctersheet.

Cheers

Osentalka

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

CMYK uses Cyan, Magneta, Yellow and Black in combination to produce any color by mixing these primary colors. You can achieve _any_ color this way.

Not quite "any", but a hell of a lot more than RGB. RGB is capable of generating colours that CMYK can't, mostly in the extremes of each primary colour. The main thing is that CMYK more closely matches the printed result.

 

[Lord Twig]

Personally I would be happy with grayscale. Color rule books never impressed me.

For those talking about more true colors in printing. Are you thinking that they would have an ink cartridge for every color? You have to mix inks. Even if you had other color cartridges they would have just mixed inks together to create them. It is just not practical.

 

[Adept]

The crowd here seems to be all in favour of grayscale.

I have to disagree somewhat. The most gorgeous RPG book I know is Nobilis (by Rebecca Borgstrom) that is (I think) Black & White on nice glossy paper. Hard Cover, naturally, and with a built in bookmark

That said, when I bought the Mythus books back in the day I was really, really impressed with the presentation. Those books are in glorious colour, on glossy paper and with nice big mood settin pictures.

Thing is, of course, that you need really good art for it to be worth going either route. If the art is generic book filler, then go with something that is cheap and looks reasonable. That said, the Mongoose books I've seen have all looked perfectly ok so far.

 

[Archer]

CMYK uses Cyan, Magneta, Yellow and Black in combination to produce any color by mixing these primary colors. You can achieve _any_ color this way.

Not quite "any", but a hell of a lot more than RGB. RGB is capable of generating colours that CMYK can't, mostly in the extremes of each primary colour. The main thing is that CMYK more closely matches the printed result.

Hmm, I'd say that the spectrum you have there is a bit off. Development in CMYK printing over just a few years have begun to close the gap between RGB and CMYK in what shades they can produce. Especially if you consider that RGB includes a lot of shades for each primary color, that the human eye can not distinct between. CMYK actually more closely matches the exact spectrum of shades and colors the human eye can see a distinction between. It is also worth to note that the amount of shades a person can distinguish is individual. Some see more, some see less.
Working with images in the CMYK color scale today is mostly so that you know that the color you see on the screen is the color you see in print (assuming you have calibrated your dispaly correctly, and use a display that actually can display all shades (if you have an TFT)).
Even so, most decent software today, can do very good conversions from RGB to CMYK (and vice versa).

 

[Melkor]

You know, FWIW, I actually prefer my RPG books to be in greyscale. To me, having the text in a pretty color doesn't add anything to the product, just pushes up the production (and retail) costs, and ends up with the pages being that glossy paper that always seems to reflect the light from the nearby lamp in just the wrong way as to make half the page hard to read.

Give me a good quality paper stock and greyscale graphics anyday. A front or back page in color, for maps and such? Sure, but the whole book in color? I don't think it's really needed, personally.

Between your post above and your opinions in the miniatures thread, you and I seem to have quite a bit in common with regards to gaming.

I agree completely.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

CMYK uses Cyan, Magneta, Yellow and Black in combination to produce any color by mixing these primary colors. You can achieve _any_ color this way.

Not quite "any", but a hell of a lot more than RGB. RGB is capable of generating colours that CMYK can't, mostly in the extremes of each primary colour. The main thing is that CMYK more closely matches the printed result.

Hmm, I'd say that the spectrum you have there is a bit off. Development in CMYK printing over just a few years have begun to close the gap between RGB and CMYK in what shades they can produce. Especially if you consider that RGB includes a lot of shades for each primary color, that the human eye can not distinct between. CMYK actually more closely matches the exact spectrum of shades and colors the human eye can see a distinction between. It is also worth to note that the amount of shades a person can distinguish is individual. Some see more, some see less.
Working with images in the CMYK color scale today is mostly so that you know that the color you see on the screen is the color you see in print (assuming you have calibrated your dispaly correctly, and use a display that actually can display all shades (if you have an TFT)).
Even so, most decent software today, can do very good conversions from RGB to CMYK (and vice versa).

I'm inclined to agree with you. There's vast swathes of both blue and red in that image that I for one cannot tell the difference between.

 

[Archer]

I'm inclined to agree with you. There's vast swathes of both blue and red in that image that I for one cannot tell the difference between.

LOL.
Yeah, we do not actually _need_ all the colors a computer can generate. Unless we somehow improve human eyesight

 

[The King]

Personally I would be happy with grayscale. Color rule books never impressed me.

I think we were talking of the map. Indeed I don't care if a book is B/W or full color but a colour map is a must (if it's well done) because you can use the colours to add info.

 

[Archer]

Well, personally, I was refering to the whole book when I was talking about printing in color.

But unfortunately, it is by now very clear that this will not be.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

I'd personally prefer to see the effort and investment going into the rules and playtesting, than into putting on a pretty face.

But that's just me.

 

[Archer]

I'd personally prefer to see the effort and investment going into the rules and playtesting, than into putting on a pretty face.

But that's just me.

Well, there is not much more effort in making it color than black and white, that is an excuse I have heard many times from those who prefer black and white printing in RPGs (as RPGs used to only two colors in the 70s and 80s, and many older players do not like change).
The only difference in money would be what you have to pay the artists, the printing itself or the layout work does not change that much.

If you want the game to sell well, you better go with the times, and today, full color printing of RPGs has become quite the standard. If you want to appeal to new players, you better put on a pretty face to attract them in the first place.

For dark fantasy settings, I prefer black and white, since it better conveys the "ambience" of the setting. And I really really love well done greyscale drawings (which is what I do myself, not well done, but greyscale).

But this discussion grows old, as the book is already done.
I hope for a full color "deluxe" edition sometime down the road, preferably boxed
But the box thing is mostly nostalgic, not many RPGs comes in boxes anymore.

 

[Lord Twig]

Personally I would be happy with grayscale. Color rule books never impressed me.

I think we were talking of the map. Indeed I don't care if a book is B/W or full color but a colour map is a must (if it's well done) because you can use the colours to add info.

Yes, I color map would be good. The map that Mongoose posted for Glorantha looks very nice.

 

[SteveMND]

Well, there is not much more effort in making it color than black and white, that is an excuse I have heard many times from those who prefer black and white printing in RPGs (as RPGs used to only two colors in the 70s and 80s, and many older players do not like change).

Personally, I don't care one way or the other as far as nostalgia goes. Butr strictly speaking, printing something with four inks by definition is going to be more expensive than printing something with only one, and more often than not, that translates to a higher retail price for a full-color version of something.

But regardless of that, and even if they managed to keep the retail price absolutely the same without gouging themselves in the pockets, I personally hate the high-gloss paper they use in full-color print runs. When I'm trying to read lots of tiny little print, the last thing I want is a glare from the overhead light on my page fuzzing out half the page.

Honestly, all the d20 books I have... in retrospect, I'd have bought non-glossy-paper b/w versions for the same price if they were otherwise the same.

 

[Archer]

Well, there is not much more effort in making it color than black and white, that is an excuse I have heard many times from those who prefer black and white printing in RPGs (as RPGs used to only two colors in the 70s and 80s, and many older players do not like change).

Personally, I don't care one way or the other as far as nostalgia goes. Butr strictly speaking, printing something with four inks by definition is going to be more expensive than printing something with only one, and more often than not, that translates to a higher retail price for a full-color version of something.

Actually, the binding and number of copies printed has a greater effect on the price. The difference in printing in greyscale (since there is no real Black and White only printing anymore) or color is not that great.

But regardless of that, and even if they managed to keep the retail price absolutely the same without gouging themselves in the pockets, I personally hate the high-gloss paper they use in full-color print runs. When I'm trying to read lots of tiny little print, the last thing I want is a glare from the overhead light on my page fuzzing out half the page.

That is another matter, glossy paper or not. You do not necessarily need to have the print become glossy when printing in full color. That is a specific choice by WoTC.
Most often the price goes up on full color printing, because they do not just print in full color, they add a lot of extra touches to the book. Such as heavier papper (really not necessary for full color printing anymore though, more a thing to make the book more resistent to wear and tear), better bindings, etc. Which brings up the price a bit.
But then also, there is a trend among RPG publishers to charge more for full color books even if the production cost is not that much greater.

Honestly, all the d20 books I have... in retrospect, I'd have bought non-glossy-paper b/w versions for the same price if they were otherwise the same.

LOL, I have heard that argument many times.
Not that I am trying to make fun of or insult you, it is just a thing I find funny, that I have heard it repeated so many times, especially among older RPGers (a group I guess I will belong to, being 32).

 

[Adept]

I for one hope that any quality RPG's are printed

a) in harcover

and

b) as pretty and visually impressive as possible

A lot of the sales are made in game stores, and a good looking product makes you pick it up and leaf through it. An ugly book doesn't get those sales. And having suffered "perfect bound" and other glue-back books over the years I gladly pay the extra money for a nice hardcover book if I can affoard it at all.

 

[Archer]

I for one hope that any quality RPG's are printed

a) in harcover

and

b) as pretty and visually impressive as possible

A lot of the sales are made in game stores, and a good looking product makes you pick it up and leaf through it. An ugly book doesn't get those sales. And having suffered "perfect bound" and other glue-back books over the years I gladly pay the extra money for a nice hardcover book if I can affoard it at all.

I agree totally with you.

 

[Cobra]

I'd cast my vote for B&W, too, on a nice clean white sheet with a matte finish and no messy watermarks.

But most important, I want to book to stay open on the page I opened it to when I lay it flat on the table, and I don't want the bindings to come unglued or pages to fall out after 10 years.

It shouldn't be rocket science.

Cobra