First game using 2nd Edition Vorlons

[Delthos]

Wow, they are just are not up to par with the other fleets. They are tough and have the potential to do damage but they just can't hang. Granted I took a War level ship in a Battle level game but even if had taken two extra Destroyers instead of a Cruiser I just don't think it would have made much difference. They really need that Raid level ship to do well. I'm really hoping the Frigate is Raid level. Also essentially having double their damage points do to Adaptive Armor they just get crit'ed to death.

We played Call to Arms 5 point Battle against Centauri. We had some asteroids and gas clouds on the fringes of the battle field, but nothing to really affect the came.

I had the following.
1 x Light Cruiser
2 x Destroyers
3 x Transports
6 x Fighters

He had the following, I didn't check to make sure he took the right number of ships as he's new to the game. It turns out he had one extra Patrol Point.

1 x Liati (Damn its bad ass!)
1 x Dargan
1 x Darkener
1 x Balvarin
2 x Altarian
4 x Vorchon (Really nasty in a squadron)
4 x Haven
4 x Razik upgrade

The first thing I noticed is that the Vorlon range really isn't an advantage against the Centauri. We were only playing on a 3.5' x 5.5' table, I could have probably mitigated that and taken advantage of the long range had we been on a larger table. I didn't deploy far enough back and not having the extra 3" of space to deploy further back made a huge difference. The Centauri were on me from the get go.

I used the fighters as Interceptors which helped a huge amount. In the end though they have so many ion shots they just overwhelmed Adaptive Armor and my impromptu fighter interceptors with crits.

I opened jump points and fled after round 4 with my one undamaged Destroyer and 1/3 damaged transport. I had taken out the Balvarin, 3 Haven, 1 Vorchon, the 1 Darkener, and one more Vorchan was 1 point from being destroyed. The rest of his remaining ships were really undamaged. I wasn't doing to bad until I lost the Adaptive Armor on the light cruiser, then the game turned around big time.

I made a couple mistakes. I should have fired the Light Cruiser into the Vorchans as my first firing activation. His fleet was so tightly packed I would have made a big dent. Needless to say I got excited about playing and fired a destroyer first and ended up letting him fire at too many of my ships do to him not loosing any ships. I probably should have taken two Destroyers instead of the Light Cruiser. I should have done a better points check of his fleet. There were others I know, but these stand out the most.

All in all I got my but spanked. I'll have to try it again and see what happens. I suspect I'm going to end up disappointed with the Vorlon. Only time will tell though.

 

[Ripple]

Yeah I have my doubts about their resilience, especially with the 'lose a trait' crit's being out there. Range is not that big an advantage against any race that can really move, or I should say that long range is not an advantage as that can be circumvent to some degree by All Power if you have even medium range weapons and don't always lose initiative. Short range and slow is more of an issue.

Crit table added a whole new issue with the lose a trait crits as you can essentially lose half a ship in addition to the damage you take. Early in a game it's a virtual "you lose" for some races.

Ripple

 

[Greg Smith]

The Vorlons won our recent campaign.

The plethora of beams was a huge advantage, since the Vorlon player could roll huge numbers of hits.

However, I can see the Centauri's double damage weapons being somewhat problematic, as they aren't inconvenienced by the adaptive armour.

Personally, I wouldn't have chosen fighters, I'd have added a couple of extra transports - they add initiative sinks, allowing your big ships to get targets of choice, plus extra beam dice and extra resilience.

 

[B_Steele]

Also, their Fore arc and sufficient range means that a hyperspace entry tactic for the bigger ships (if you guys used those rules) allow for the target of the Vorlons' choice...to simply destroy.

They are mean, they just take some practice.

-Bry

 

[eldiablito]

The little I have played against Vorlons, I can quickly say that they trounce my Minbari. When I take several long-range beam ships, the vorlons can out shoot me, their racial advantages trump my stealth, and their Adaptive Armor is far better than any "close blast doors" order. When I take the close-range, Troligan and Tigara ships, then I can quickly find that the more maneuverable transport class Vorlons can quite easily turn to face a ship or two and then their beams are even more accurate (as I try to close within 8").

So whereas I will say that the Vorlons are a good fleet, the special rules and advantages do seem to create a "Rock-Paper-Scissors" game; Where fleet selection and planning does not always dictate the winner, sometimes it is just the darn fleet itself. :evil:

But, I also think that there are some people who know this game far better than I and they probably have better suggestions too.

 

[Da Boss]

The little I have played against Vorlons, I can quickly say that they trounce my Minbari. When I take several long-range beam ships, the vorlons can out shoot me, their racial advantages trump my stealth, and their Adaptive Armor is far better than any "close blast doors" order. .

really? a Sharlin etc at range 20+ will only be seen on a 5+ due to lack of scouts in the Vorlon fleet, even once a ship has managed to see it and fire it is only 4+ to hit it, close to within 8" and it see's you on a 3+ so still 1 and 2's fail unitl it or a fighter hit it. Stealth is usually very powerful or next to useless..............CBD on your sniping Sharlin's etc can be very effective

 

[eldiablito]

The little I have played against Vorlons, I can quickly say that they trounce my Minbari. When I take several long-range beam ships, the vorlons can out shoot me, their racial advantages trump my stealth, and their Adaptive Armor is far better than any "close blast doors" order. .

really? a Sharlin etc at range 20+ will only be seen on a 5+ due to lack of scouts in the Vorlon fleet, even once a ship has managed to see it and fire it is only 4+ to hit it, close to within 8" and it see's you on a 3+ so still 1 and 2's fail unitl it or a fighter hit it. Stealth is usually very powerful or next to useless..............CBD on your sniping Sharlin's etc can be very effective

Then perhaps I just got unlucky because in the initial volley, I can usually expect to loose a ship. The first time I played against them, for example, I lost the forward beam weapon of my Tinashi to a critical hit and the ship was more than half way destroyed. I never had a chance to repair the damage because the next turn, it was wrecked by the transport ships' beams. That +1 versus stealth seems to really pay off for my buddy's Vorlon fleet.

It seems that my opponents know how to beat my Stealth; lots of scouts, e-mines and/or fighter swarms drop my score by at least 2, then the capital ships finish it off with some concentrated fire.

 

[Delthos]

This is moving a little off topic from the Vorlons, but are you sure you are playing stealth right? At range your opponents just shouldn't be getting target locks that much, unless they have loaded dice. If they don't get the lock those weapons can't be fired again that turn. Do they keep targeting multiple ships with one ship until they get a lock? If they are it's no wonder they are eating you up. You declare fire, try to break stealth, fire weapons if target lock is obtained. If it's failed no other chances to fire on those weapons used in that particular declaration.

 

[Ripple]

I didn't see any indication he was doing it wrong, just perhaps his friend got lucky. We had a similar issue in a campaign battle where stealth did not pan out for the Minbari and they felt it was a wasted stat. We went over the rolls and the other guy just rolled real well.

Vorlons can only ever reduce you stealth by...

Previous hit -1
Within 8 -1
Vorloness -1

you stealth can be boosted by

terrain +2
over 20 +1

So like DaBoss said above your 5+ stealth ships at long range should be fine most of the time being at least a 3+ (4+ over 20). Now if a vorlon does see you.... well that is a bad day... and lucky front arc crits are devastating. A number of recent games have been determined by who took a front arc when.

Ripple

 

[No. 1 Bear]

A number of recent games have been determined by who took a front arc when.

Ripple

I've found the same thing. a game vs locotus i sought of saw off his ships with just a 4 flights of fighters.

 

[eldiablito]

This is moving a little off topic from the Vorlons, but are you sure you are playing stealth right? At range your opponents just shouldn't be getting target locks that much, unless they have loaded dice.

Vorlons have plenty of options against Minbari:

The Transport ships and fighters move forward quickly as the war and battle ships hang back. On turn 1, the Vorlon player hopes for an early 5+ on the stealth roll (due to range and racial bonuses). By turn 2, the fighters are close enough to usually start beating on a single, particular ship. That is enough to drop the Stealth from 5 to 4. The transports should be close enough to have their target down to 3. Finally, the racial bonuses are enough to get it down to 2. Even the War and Battle ships are close enough to start shooting on an initial roll of 3+.

I know that this seems ridiculous this means that 2/3 the ships will miss on turn 1 and few by turn 2. All it takes is just one good roll at the start of the game. Consider just what those Vorlons are shooting at the Minbari; all are precise beams, most are double damage and some are quadruple! The light cruisers are throwing 6 dice (although they will not likely have the close range modifier going for them). In the end, if the light cruiser gets past the stealth roll, it should (on slightly better than average rolls) do about 24 damage and 2 additional critical hits! If this sort of beam weapon was fired upon a Tinashi, the battle ship would be crippled in 1 volley (perhaps destroyed if the critical was dangerous enough). When this is done against a Tigara (or in that particular game, a Teshlan), then you have a dead ship before the critical rolls.

I say this not as sour grapes, but rather, I do not see the Vorlons as weak at all! They have great forward shooting with their battle and war class ships. At skirmish level, they can out-maneuver all but Vree or Whitestars and their guns rival most enemy raid level beam weapons. I do, on the other hand, believe that IF you field the ISA or Vree fleets, then you will eventually get around the back of the Vorlon fleet and then it is all but over.

 

[Ripple]

Odd choice of example for the fleets strengths. A war level ship can cripple a battle level or kill a raid level in one shot? Okay... not far off what most war level ships can do, except they also have side and rear weapons.

That great skirmish ship has only 12 damage points and 3 AD total... so a 1 AD loss is 1/3 of it's total firepower...fairly big deal. Loss adaptive and it dies to most folks skirmish level missiles ships.

Vs the Minbari, yeah he's hoping for the 5+ early...and he doesn't get it you hit him with your precise DD (or TD if you took the right ship) beams for free. What is the huge advantage here? He has more dice... but you have secondary weapons and carried fighters.

You can lose a weapon and still fire, most Vorlons can't.

Just saying, your looking at what the Vorlon has but not looking at what you have as the Minbari, which does make it look like sour grapes.

Ripple

 

[Misiolak]

...That great skirmish ship has only 12 damage points and 3 AD total... so a 1 AD loss is 1/3 of it's total firepower...

It only has 2 AD, so any -1AD means 50% drop in firepower...

 

[eldiablito]

No worries... I WILL figure out how to beat them (eventually). The post started off with a bad opinion of the Vorlons and my previous encounters say otherwise.

Vorlons are tough, REALLY tough if you cannot get out of the way of those big, forward firing guns. That is a tough thing with most standard ships, you need something REALLY maneuverable and fairly fast. I guess if I could only survive that first turn with my bigger ships in-tact, then I would do quite a bit better. As it is, I have yet to survive the first turn without loosing my heavy hitter.

 

[Ripple]

My math was terrible the last couple days... I really need to break this string of sleepless nights or stop posting. Really obvious stuff is just going by me without a second glance.

Fighting Vorlons is somewhat like fighting the old Centauri beam teams. It was rare for the targeted ship to survive, so you were better off taking lots of ships and making him waste firepower by overkilling things. Just the nature of the big front arc, long range races... you have to be fast, jump in or be stealthy to get by unscathed.

Ripple