First Aid: dangerous?

[mr31337]

With first aid according to CRB p75 you restore 2 x effect. So if you get a negative effect is there any reason to assume damage would not be caused? :shock:

I've just had this come up in a campaign and it meant a VIP was killed by first aid from a medic/1. It seems possible, but unlikely. Anybody have any rules they can site which clarify this. Community opinion invited.

 

[alex_greene]

Only if you absolutely, one hundred percent, stick to the rules and never deviate from the strictest possible interpretation. If it looks like an essential NPC is about be killed before his crucial role is revealed, you can make any number of things happen before the incompetence of the player kills the NPC. For instance:-

- At the last minute, some guy could step up out of the crowd and shove the incompetent First Aider out of the way, proclaiming himself to be an actual MD, and then resuscitate the VIP before spending the next ten minutes chewing out the butterfingered character; or a stray sniper shot might bounce off the character's armour, knocking the incompetent back off his feet, out cold, and the patient kind of revives on his own.

- Perhaps at the last minute an ambulance rolls up and the real medics come rushing in, knocking the incompetent character off to one side ("What the HELL do you think you are doing, trying to apply a tourniquet around his NECK?") or the patient seems to wake up on his own accord and onlookers haul the character off him before his furious and unnecessary CPR fractures the poor guy's ribs.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Who is trying to kill the characters? :lol:
It would be up to the Referee. Looking at it from a nit picky Rules As Written point of view, there is no specific application due to a Failure for Healing. However there may be consequences that are up to a Referee based on the general rules concerning Skills and Tasks on page 50. I might give damage on an effect of -6 or more. To be complete:

An Effect of 0 or better is a Success. But because p.75 says twice the Effect is healed, so what do you give for a 0? No specific rule, but Referee might say 1 point (only 1 point) is healed. Hey, it is a Success.

An Effect of -1 or worse is a Failure. There are only three levels of failure. Page 75 has no specific rules about a healing failure so a referee may go to the general rule.

-1 Marginal Failure - It says something to the effect you succeeded but there is a consequence. Me personally would say you get 1 (and only 1) point healed, but give a side effect of make a future healing worse or something like that.

-2 to -5 Average Failure is simply you failed at the task. No other description. It's as if you did not even try.

-6 Exceptional Failure Here is where a Referee may interpret damage. The description says "The character failed as completely as it is possibly to fail. Anything that can go wrong goes wrong. If attempting to repair a device, the device is further damaged or even destroyed. In a social situation, the character gets into further trouble." I would in this case interpret you did more damage 1 point per Effect of failure starting at -6 (1pt -6, 2pt -7 and so on).

All this is my interpretation...So, it is POSSIBLE (in my games anyway) to make things worse...

 

[DickTurpin]

It is possible, although unlikely, to actually cause more damage while trying to bandage someone so you could rule that a negative effect causes additional damage. However, you could just as easily rule that the word "restores" implies that only a positive effect is used. A failed roll could just mean that the treatment had no effect.

Another thing to keep in mind is that patients can be revived even after their heart stops. If blood flow (oxygen) can be restored within a minute or two the injured person could still survive. A dose of Fast drug or stuffing them into a low berth could lengthen the time considerably.

Doctors/EMTs don't give up the first time a patient flatlines. They keep trying until it is obvious that there is no hope. If you want to allow additional First Aid attempts the player might get a better result the next time. Since First Aid takes 1d6 minutes, perhaps allowing as many attempts as they can fit in to a 10-12 minute time span would make sense.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

However, to get an Effect of -6 would be impossible unless there were additional -DM to the roll you are not aware of or have not described. Simply put:

2d6 roll (2)
Medic Skill (1)
2+1-8= Effect (-5)

So unless the Medic was rushed for time (Time DMs) or some other factor, you would have not achieved Exceptional Failure effect.
Note: Skill Rolls do not have automatic failure or automatic success of "natural rolls" of 2 or 12. Other rolls in the rule book are specifically mentioned, but not Skills and Tasks!

Don't let the untrained near a character though!
2d6 roll (2)
Medic Skill (None, therefore a -3 for an "untrained" character)
2+(-3)-8= Effect (-9)!
Just sayin'...

 

[F33D]

With first aid according to CRB p75 you restore 2 x effect. So if you get a negative effect is there any reason to assume damage would not be caused? :shock:

I've just had this come up in a campaign and it meant a VIP was killed by first aid from a medic/1. It seems possible, but unlikely. Anybody have any rules they can site which clarify this. Community opinion invited.

Sure. Doctors kill patients by the bus load load in real life.

 

[mr31337]

It seem unlikely that first aid can do more damage than bullets or that somebody could heal 16+ points with a first aid kit. And marginal success might not do any healing at all...hmm

Seems like a badly thought through rule. Might have to consider house ruling it.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Oh, I forgot the Characteristic DM (which goes from -2 to +3) if allowed. So if Mr. Idiot is treating you:

2d6 roll (2)
Medic Skill (None, therefore a -3 for an "untrained" character)
Characteristic DM -2 (Say Int 1)
2+(-3)+(-2)-8= Effect (-11)!
So that is 6 more points more than a -5. 6 damage points? (I did not mean to punch him!)

On the other extreme
2d6 roll (12)
Medic Skill (4, one of the best in the world)
Characteristic DM +3 (Say Int 15)
12+4+3-8= Effect (+11)
So 22 points healed up! It was just a flesh wound!

 

[CosmicGamer]

Page 56 under the Medic skill says

First aid: Education, 1–6 minutes, Average (+0). The patient regains lost characteristic points equal to the Effect.

Page 75 says

Applying first aid restores a number of characteristic points equal to twice the Effect of the Medic check.

Which is it, 1 point or 2?

Just thought I'd point that out first. with this and other issues brought up, yes

Seems like a badly thought through rule. Might have to consider house ruling it.

the rules on this are wacky and need some work.

With first aid according to CRB p75 you restore 2 x effect. So if you get a negative effect is there any reason to assume damage would not be caused?

Not saying that you can't use negative effect in this case but if you are looking for a reason not to:

There are places in the rules where it is obvious that negative effects do not apply. For example under Athletics(coordination)

The character jumps a number of metres straight up equal to the Effect halved.

How do you jump up a negative amount?

Under computers and hacking

The Effect determines the amount of data retrieved

Can you retrieve a negative amount of data? At least here it goes on to say

failure means that the targeted system may be able to trace the hacking attempt

Under explosives

The damage from the explosive is multiplied by the Effect

Negative damage? An implosion or maybe a gateway to an alternate universe? :lol:

 

[JRoss]

Page 56 under the Medic skill says
Quote:
First aid: Education, 1–6 minutes, Average (+0). The patient regains lost characteristic points equal to the Effect.

Page 75 says
Quote:
Applying first aid restores a number of characteristic points equal to twice the Effect of the Medic check.

Which is it, 1 point or 2?

Read the rest of the thing on Page 75 and it says that the double healing only applies within five minutes of the injury, otherwise it's equal to the Effect.

Here's my thoughts on the matter:

Traveller Core Rulebook Page 75, under Surgery, states:
A character who is seriously wounded (after first aid has
been applied) requires surgery. Surgery restores characteristic
points just like first aid but if the check is failed the patient loses
characteristic points equal to the Effect.

The inclusion of "but" indicates to me that failing on First Aid doesn't damage someone. I understand that it can easily happen in real life, but I'm going by what the rules say.

 

[rust]

I've just had this come up in a campaign and it meant a VIP was killed by first aid from a medic/1. It seems possible, but unlikely. Anybody have any rules they can site which clarify this. Community opinion invited.

While it is quite possible to kill someone with a fumbled attempt
at first aid, it is highly unlikely that someone with several years
of training and/or experience (= Medic 1) would make such a ca-
tastrophic mistake. I would consider negative consequences of a
fumbled attempt at first aid only for actions by untrained persons,
and even then only if the result fits into the campaign. The rules
for first aid are not clear, and I see rules only as the author's pro-
posal anyway, so I would go with what seems plausible in the si-
tuation in question.

 

[tanksoldier]

Sure. Doctors kill patients by the bus load load in real life.

Doctors, yes. Surgeons cutting somebody open or administering complex drug interactions.

EMT-Bs may fail to save a patient, but they rarely kill them.

In real life it is highly unlikely a patient will be killed outright by incorrectly administered first aid IF the patient wasn't going to die without assistance anyway.

A failed Heimlich Maneuver doesn't kill the patient, the choking does. Failed CPR doesn't kill the patient, the heart attack does. Improperly applying a tourniquet doesn't kill the patient (unless you apply it to the neck for for a head wound), the arterial bleeding does. Improperly applying a airtight dressing doesn't kill the patient, the wound and resulting tension pneumothorax does.

The only ay I could see basic first aid actually killing a patient is if it impacted an already serious condition, such as a cervical or thoracic spine injury or severely broken ribs... where moving the patient improperly might worsen the injury to the point of death. That sort of injury is so severe that, in game terms, the patient is headed for death without successful medial assistance anyway. Having the failed roll CAUSE additional injury is probably pointless. The failure merely fails to save the patient.

ETA: I suppose that a completely untrained person using a default might do something that would cause additional injury leading to death, like applying the neck tourniquet, but extremely unlikely for anyone with training.

I'd have a failed roll by a trained individual not provide any healing, and make future rolls more difficult. For a non-trained individual, I'd have the same and an Exceptional Failure cause an additional point of damage as well.

 

[rust]

The only way I could see basic first aid actually killing a patient is if it impacted an already serious condition ...

... or misguided first aid, like using CPR on a patient who had no
heart problem before the CPR caused it ... :roll:

 

[CosmicGamer]

Read the rest of the thing on Page 75 and it says that the double healing only applies within five minutes of the injury, otherwise it's equal to the Effect.

Thanks for that.

It was late, the wife was already falling asleep on the couch, so I rushed to get the post in before bed and didn't read the whole thing.

Brings up a new issue. Lets say it takes 2 minutes to get to the patient - need to finish off the bad guys or get the patient somewhere safe before applying first aid, whatever. If the timing roll is 4 or higher, first aid is still being applied after the 5 minute mark. Would you use 1 point or 2 per effect?

And of course, there is still that successful first aid that has 0 effect.

 

[dragoner]

The only way I could see basic first aid actually killing a patient is if it impacted an already serious condition ...

... or misguided first aid, like using CPR on a patient who had no
heart problem before the CPR caused it ... :roll:

Or used improper hand placement:

 

[alex_greene]

It seem unlikely that first aid can do more damage than bullets

Actually, yes, it can - and quite spectacularly so, too.

US President James Garfield survived for weeks after being shot on 1881 07 02, most of which time he was in agony - more due to the incompetence of the medics treating him than the actual assassin's bullet. After contracting blood poisoning and bronchial pneumonia, he died of an aneurysm on 1881 09 19.

Which is why, as Referee, you should always have some random intervention handy to save any critical NPCs from your player characters' incompetence; the last thing your poor crucial NPC needs to hear is "No wait! You don't need to get him to a hospital. I've got this!"

 

[CosmicGamer]

She saw a mouse and the fright caused her to pass out. Some idiot passing by while eating a health bar with peanuts gives her unnecessary CPR. She's deathly allergic to peanuts.

The concept here is that some medication that the first aider uses might cause negative effects.

 

[alex_greene]

She saw a mouse and the fright caused her to pass out.

Outside of 1960s TV sitcoms and Tom and Jerry cartoons, I don't think I ever encountered a woman who fainted or jumped on a chair, screaming, when she saw a mouse. Most women I know would just pick up the phone and call in the exterminators or grab a floorbrush or something.

 

[rust]

Outside of 1960s TV sitcoms and Tom and Jerry cartoons, I don't think I ever encountered a woman who fainted or jumped on a chair, screaming, when she saw a mouse.

The last time our cat brought home a living mouse my lady
did feed the mouse before taking it outside in her hands ... :lol:

 

[CosmicGamer]

We're getting way off the point of my post but since folk seam interested in talking about mice instead of first aid I'll explain why such popped into my mind.

This morning my stepdaughter visited and told us about having a mouse problem where she lives. So mice were on my mind. My wife mentioned she'd freak out if we had mice. About 2 hours later my dad came over and my wife was at her computer and didn't realized he was there. When he stepped behind her and said hi she screamed and jumped. I have no doubt that she would jump on the couch or run screaming from the room if she saw a mouse. So no fainting, but this is how certain things created that first line of my post that was meant to be a bit silly.