Feudal Technocracy

hdan

Mongoose
While reading through Research Station Gamma the other day, I realized that we DO actually have a good description of what a Feudal Technocracy is, aside from the vague and oft-disputed one in the rules.

Perhaps this was obvious to everyone but me, but given the not-infrequent occurrence of threads on this topic throughout the years, it seemed worth sharing my "epiphany" in case anyone else finds it useful.

On Vanejen, the nobles control different *industries*, rather than territories. Their control of (for example) the Coal Mining industry is hereditary and presumable titles can be granted ("Baron of Extraction", Thane of the 34th Mining Company, or whatever.)

Presumably there would be a Duchy of Real Estate and Urban Development who functions as the City's planner and controller. In an FT government, it's likely that Security would be "privatized" to a family in a weird parody of modern anarchist ideals.

Thoughts? Too obvious to comment on? :)
 
hdan said:
it's likely that Security would be "privatized" to a family in a weird parody of modern anarchist ideals.

Thoughts? Too obvious to comment on? :)

Never seen an anarchists promote companies controlling security for the masses. I think your analogies need more fleshing out..
 
DFW said:
hdan said:
it's likely that Security would be "privatized" to a family in a weird parody of modern anarchist ideals.

Thoughts? Too obvious to comment on? :)

Never seen an anarchists promote companies controlling security for the masses. I think your analogies need more fleshing out..

Maybe you hang out with different anarchists. The few I know are always on about "Free market" this and "privatize that", with the idea that we get rid of "government" and its regulations completely and turn *everything* over to market-driven private contractors. [I have tried to explain the absolute insanity of that idea to them, but we have agreed to disagree on the topic.]

I probably should have used the more proper term "anarcho-capitalists".
 
hdan said:
Maybe you hang out with different anarchists.

I guess so. I've never even seen any writings from these types advocating corps having police powers over the population. Love to see a link from an anarchist group advocating such...
 
hdan said:
While reading through Research Station Gamma the other day, I realized that we DO actually have a good description of what a Feudal Technocracy is, aside from the vague and oft-disputed one in the rules.

Perhaps this was obvious to everyone but me, but given the not-infrequent occurrence of threads on this topic throughout the years, it seemed worth sharing my "epiphany" in case anyone else finds it useful.

On Vanejen, the nobles control different *industries*, rather than territories. Their control of (for example) the Coal Mining industry is hereditary and presumable titles can be granted ("Baron of Extraction", Thane of the 34th Mining Company, or whatever.)

Presumably there would be a Duchy of Real Estate and Urban Development who functions as the City's planner and controller. In an FT government, it's likely that Security would be "privatized" to a family in a weird parody of modern anarchist ideals.

Thoughts? Too obvious to comment on? :)

I could see how some of this could work, such as privatizing all government services. In theory a company can run them as ineffeciently as the government can... :D

But some of it might be rather difficult to do where there was overlap between different controlling companies. The issue with having a single entity control all of an industiral sector/industry is that businesses are in it for theirselves. Competition is bad, and therefore they would, I think, be constantly warring with one another. Which would suck for the populace.

There would have to be some sort of governing structure/council that everyone answered to in order to prevent chaos from destablizing the entire economy. Today most companies only pay attention to the laws because they have too, not because its the right thing to do. They and their leadership have been conditioned that breaking the law costs money (and rarely jail time). And you still hear every day of big companies breaking the law in the name of profit. I would suspect that having an entire planet run where all corporations are essentially competitors with one another for profit would be a nightmare!
 
Well, that program actually fits better with the Minarchist subgroup within the Libertarian umbrella. Only the most radical of the Minarchists actually advocate going completely anarchist, but unfortunately, those are the loudest of the bunch -- and usually, the ones who have thought the consequences through the least.

Actually, the Libertarian model, particularly as expressed by L. Neil Smith in his fiction, is a pretty good model for a functioning crossover between a corporate government and a feudal technocracy (with a little bit of work). Granted, L. Neil's societies wouldn't be feudal in name, but in form and function they could easily develop that way.

For a semihistorical version of feudal technocracy, however, consider the guild system -- and extrapolate a (very) little. Had that system developed a little more, it could have made the jump to being something of a knowledge-based semifeudal system.
 
DFW said:
hdan said:
Maybe you hang out with different anarchists.

I guess so. I've never even seen any writings from these types advocating corps having police powers over the population. Love to see a link from an anarchist group advocating such...

No, that's not what I said, or at least not what I meant. Populations HIRE a security force to defend them, though frankly I don't relish the idea of turning over more authority to neighborhood associations. :)

The "Corporations have authority to police people" is more along the Cyberpunk lines (you live in a corporation controlled "suburban enclave" or "burbclave" as I think it was in "Snow Crash") than anarcho-capitalist.

I was not saying that FT was anarchist, but rather that it resembled a sort of twisted version of the "privatize the world" type of theory.

The major difference being that you don't get to choose who you contract police or fire defense services from, there is a family whose hereditary purview it is to provide those services and presumably levy whatever taxes they see as necessary to support that activity.

Frankly I have a lot of trouble imagining a fully privatized civil service, but it's easy enough to imagine multi-national monopolies as "hereditary holdings" instead of publicly traded corporations. But if your whole world is rated as FeudTech, then logically it follows that required civil services like police, fire, power, garbage collection, etc. would all be hereditary fiefdoms as well.
 
hdan said:
No, that's not what I said, or at least not what I meant. Populations HIRE a security force to defend them, though frankly I don't relish the idea of turning over more authority to neighborhood associations. :)

Oh, like private security guards. We have them in our community. But then again, citizens already have powers of arrest/detention. So, not much different than police powers anyway.
 
phavoc said:
I could see how some of this could work, such as privatizing all government services. In theory a company can run them as ineffeciently as the government can... :D

If they were sufficiently motivated (that is, didn't have a local monopoly on their service).
Though it's almost hard some times imagining them being less efficient than government. :)

phavoc said:
But some of it might be rather difficult to do where there was overlap between different controlling companies. The issue with having a single entity control all of an industiral sector/industry is that businesses are in it for theirselves. Competition is bad, and therefore they would, I think, be constantly warring with one another. Which would suck for the populace.

On Vanejen, the technocracy grew on top of an existing group of "Great Families" after contact with interstellar civilization was renewed. I imagine that they parceled out control of the new spheres of power that offworld technology brought, though I suspect the process was not a peaceful one.

Since each "holding" would be a monopoly, there would be no competition. Anyone who tried to compete would find that the other "peers of the realm" would not do business with them. (Or if they did, things could get interesting militarily and politically, since such an action would be seen as equivalent to invading another's country.)

I personally don't imagine an FT world as being progressive in any way, since at least with Human populations, competition seems to be required to drive innovation. But greed is a good motivator too, and there are other worlds out there to trade with....


The traveller wiki's definition of FT doesn't agree with my assessment of Vanejen's description. The wiki's definition sounds WAY more like the "minarchy" mentioned, though calling it a "Feudal Technocracy" has a lot of connotative baggage that does not match the "minarchy" concept.

My interpretation of Vanejen's "Great Family Monopolies" government sounds more like a Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy, though one with a Feudal flare.

How would you rate a place that was ruled by the equivalent of the Sicilian Mob? Totalitarian Oligarchy?

phavoc said:
There would have to be some sort of governing structure/council that everyone answered to in order to prevent chaos from destablizing the entire economy. Today most companies only pay attention to the laws because they have too, not because its the right thing to do. They and their leadership have been conditioned that breaking the law costs money (and rarely jail time). And you still hear every day of big companies breaking the law in the name of profit. I would suspect that having an entire planet run where all corporations are essentially competitors with one another for profit would be a nightmare!

Agreed. But if you aren't required to turn a profit because there are no shareholders and no competitors, then you wind up running your "business" (if such a thing can be called a business) so that your customer/constituents are at least minimally content to avoid revolution and you and yours can live in luxury. And in a fully realized Feudal system, there would be either a King or a House of Lords who could pressure you to behave on pain of losing your status or even life.

Plus, in the Traveller sense, few planets exist in a vacuum (ha ha). The Imperium would probably exert influence to the extent that they would award contracts to the more successful nobles and apply political pressure to the other nobles to further their agenda when necessary.
 
So treat a Feudal Technocracy as a bunch of vertical monopolies?

That is an interesting application of that government type.

I have found that with 2 or 3 decent examples of each government type, it is fairly easy to understand how it could work.

I will add this one to my existing list of examples of this government type, along with:

* Hydraulic Empire
* Multi-Corporate Control (like a Balkanized Government 1) this actualy probably fits the Vertical Monopoly version very well.
* Technological Dictator (TEDs from TNE but without giving them a new Gov code)
 
The Sword Worlds in Piper's Space Vikings are run as feudal technocracies, I think Piper actually uses that phrase, too, which explains where Marc Miller got it from (hey, he got the lot from all that 70s space opera!).
 
Yep, got to add that one to my list too...

TechnoPriests - Kind of like a Hydraulic Empire, but not necessarily a controlling group, just controlling some vital technology.

You could argue that the Spacing Guild from Dune was a Feudal Technocracy as well; only the Guild had interstellar travel and CHOAM controlled Spice...

The trappings of government, may not actually tell you what the government really is.

For example, it could be argued that Britain has either a Aristocracy (GOV=3), a Representative Democracy (GOV=4), a Civil Service Bureaucracy (GOV=8) or perhaps even an Impersonal Bureaucracy (GOV=9). From the outside, it looks like a bit of all four.

Feudal Technocracy could be very similar, with a Caste System imposed to protect everyone and different Castes controlling different vital technologies. The Water Caste controls all sanitation and drinking water. The Power Caste controls all electrical power generation and distribution. BOTH are needed by the society (along with others) so a Technocracy develops.

I could see these types of governments becoming very common during a Long Night scenario; such as that experienced between the Rule of Man and the Sylean Imperium (Third Imperium). Other settings might develop it as well, especially on those low populations on nasty hellworlds.
 
Mithras said:
The Sword Worlds in Piper's Space Vikings are run as feudal technocracies, I think Piper actually uses that phrase, too, which explains where Marc Miller got it from (hey, he got the lot from all that 70s space opera!).

Total thread hijack here... There is supposed to be at least ONE if not TWO NEW Space Vikings books coming out. One is a completely new one by John F Carr, the other is also by him, but it's being reviewed by Pournelle for some reason. So that's prolly gonna slow its release.

Piper fans should check out Hostigos.com for more Piper info and literary goodies.
 
*cough* Theres no such thing as an anarchist group because a true anarchist goes against conformity of any sort, a group has to conform to its own ideals, making it a group, so an anarchist would not be part of that.

8)
 
phavoc said:
But some of it might be rather difficult to do where there was overlap between different controlling companies. The issue with having a single entity control all of an industiral sector/industry is that businesses are in it for theirselves. Competition is bad, and therefore they would, I think, be constantly warring with one another. Which would suck for the populace.

Businesses can be in it for whatever they choose to be in it for, unless constrained by an external force. Publicly held companies are compelled by law to be in it for improving shareholder value, but privately held companies can organise themselves, and define their goals and standards, however they like (within the law) but are not beholden to shareholders or laws that purport to protect shareholder's interests.

There would have to be some sort of governing structure/council that everyone answered to in order to prevent chaos from destablizing the entire economy.

There needs to be an arbitration mechanism yes. That's what governments do. What you're describing isn't corporate government, it's just companies monopolising the provision of public services. There are numerous present-day examples of that.

Simon Hibbs
 
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