Fatigue rule strangeness

[Mongoose Pete]

So, is not it an errata? Is it optional? Is Combat Actions the first intention?

Its an option. Don't worry about swapping CAs for Rounds. Its your game, tweak it to what suits your preferred playing style - realistic or heroic.

Combat Actions was the first intention, but in all honesty it makes little difference if you change it since unless you are staging a large skirmish with multiple opponents, most fights are generally over in 2 or 3 rounds.

If you look at full contact competitive fights there's a lot of standing about between engagements where both opponents are breathing hard, recovering strength and preparing for the next flurry of activity. So a sport or tournament fight might seem to extend quite a long time and the participants possess great endurance, but in reality most of it is dead time conserving stamina. Even so, participants still gradually get weaker and slower over the course of the bout.

How do you model these 'rest breaks' in MRQ2? Well normally I wouldn't bother, since in a real armed fight one of the combatants will probably be seriously injured or on the ground within 10 seconds anyway. Likewise, holding a bridge against a queue of attackers or being chased around by 2 or 3 guys simultaneously then there's no hope of a rest.

If on the other hand you have a reputation as a deadly opponent, then there's a chance your foes may be psychologically psyching themselves up to commit to what might be a suicidal attack. In those moments, looking intimidating might buy you 10-20 seconds of breathing space to recoup, or at least stem, lost endurance.

As Jujitsudave intimated in his first post, you burn through a lot of energy simply due to stress. In a life or death situation you're flooded with adrenalin, heart rate and respiration go through the roof, and you become very twitchy with released glucose reserves. Its not the same as hard exercise, its a brutal hormonal flood. You are literally haemorrhaging energy as your body goes into overdrive - even if standing still.

This is why people get the shakes or collapse after a near death experience. When combined with the exertion of swinging a weapon with force, blocking similar blows with a shield and making swift engaging and disengaging movements, it not only becomes a killer but it also takes significant time to recover from. However, that isn't so much fun as being Horatius on the bridge, so feel free to tinker with fatigue and its recovery any way you feel makes MRQ2 a better game. :wink:

 

[cthulhudarren]

Combat Actions was the first intention, but in all honesty it makes little difference if you change it since unless you are staging a large skirmish with multiple opponents, most fights are generally over in 2 or 3 rounds.

If you look at full contact competitive fights there's a lot of standing about between engagements where both opponents are breathing hard, recovering strength and preparing for the next flurry of activity. So a sport or tournament fight might seem to extend quite a long time and the participants possess great endurance, but in reality most of it is dead time conserving stamina. Even so, participants still gradually get weaker and slower over the course of the bout.

How do you model these 'rest breaks' in MRQ2? Well normally I wouldn't bother, since in a real armed fight one of the combatants will probably be seriously injured or on the ground within 10 seconds anyway. Likewise, holding a bridge against a queue of attackers or being chased around by 2 or 3 guys simultaneously then there's no hope of a rest.

The RAW doesn't work for recovery, it takes hours to move up a fatigue level after getting tired in the first 10 seconds. It needs tweaking. Maybe a CON number of time segments greater than the time segments which resulted in your fatigue level?

For example: 1 level of fatigue happens after CON (-armor penalty) combat actions. Then recovery would happen after CON number of combat ROUNDS.

2nd level fatigue happens after CON (-armor penalty) minutes, so would take CON hours to recover? It'd be nice to have a simple mechanic for this but it might not scale correctly.

 

[Jujitsudave]

Perhaps if your character "rests" and takes no action for 1 full round you could "reset" the fatigue rate back to 0. It wouldn't take previously incurred penalties though.

 

[cthulhudarren]

I realized last night that you also have to take into account the type of activity that produced the fatigue. You can't march all day long, get winded, then rest for CON combat segments, and be fresh as a daisy again. With this you'd use the RAW, 2 hours.

 

[Redcrow]

Personally, I would go with CON Combat Rounds minus SR penalty from Armor before fatigue begins to set in. I think this would strike a better balance between armored melee combat, unarmored ranged combat, and other things that induce fatigue like Sprinting. YMMV.

 

[Jujitsudave]

I see your point, Redcrow. Although the rules as currently written are good in my opinion there is a lot of bookeeping.

How would you feel if we changed it to a number of rounds = to Athletics crit range - AP? Once that many rounds are expended, there wouldn't be a check, the penalty is automatic.

In addition this would only apply to characters that either attack OR defend in melee combat and those that spend an entire round to do nothing but rest eliminate their "battle fatigue" counter. This would not take away any fatigue penalties already incurred.

If you agree, we can put it to a party vote.

 

[Redcrow]

How would you feel if we changed it to a number of rounds = to Athletics crit range - AP? Once that many rounds are expended, there wouldn't be a check, the penalty is automatic.

To be honest I would be against basing it on Athletics Crit Range - AP. My character would be even worse off than he is using CA's. As it stands now (using CA's) I don't have to roll for Fatigue until the end of the 3rd Round (~15 seconds) of Combat, but basing it off Athletics Crit Range - AP, my character would incur fatigue after every 2nd Round (~10 seconds) automatically.

I just find it hard to believe that the initial adrenaline rush of battle could wear off and fatigue would set in in as little as 10 or 15 seconds, but admittedly I don't have any experience with actual armored melee fighting.

An alternative suggestion I would make is that perhaps the first Fatigue test should be after a number of Combat Rounds equal to CON - AP, but perhaps each subsequent test would be based on CA's as the RAW states. That might better simulate that once fatigue does begin to set in things go from bad to worse rather quickly, but adrenaline will carry you a little further in the beginning.

 

[Jujitsudave]

How about rounds = CON -AP and -3 for overloaded characters? After that, the character is automatically at the first level of fatigue.

Every consecutive level thereafter requires an athletics check to prevent further fatigue problems. Resting (taking no action other than speaking) will reset the "fatigue rounds" counter but will not reduce the penalty.

I'm not putting that part in to screw over the PCs, but more to maintain the presence of fatigue effects. If you simply go to fatigue = rounds and nothing else, fatigue will likely never be a factor in combat which is unrealistic. Making a "break point" with a penalty automatically after a number of rounds encourages PCs and enemies alike to pace themselves. I still want to make Athletics involved so further penalties can be avoided every round by making basic checks.

Keep in mind that by allowing a rest action, it gives inactive PCs the chance to remain fresh to replace tiring allies. It also gives an "out" for PCs that don't want to take a fatigue penalty.

What do you think (Redcrow specifically)?

 

[Dan True]

Keep in mind that by allowing a rest action, it gives inactive PCs the chance to remain fresh to replace tiring allies. It also gives an "out" for PCs that don't want to take a fatigue penalty.

There already is a rest action, it is called "Do nothing". You only take fatigue from consecutive heavy activity, so if you spend a CA or two simply circling each other, then you reset the "Fatigue CA counter".
Which is why duelling fighters tend to fight in bursts, with periods of circling in between.

- Dan

 

[Redcrow]

There already is a rest action, it is called "Do nothing". You only take fatigue from consecutive heavy activity, so if you spend a CA or two simply circling each other, then you reset the "Fatigue CA counter".

Is this actually in the book (or errata) or is it just a house rule?

Which is why duelling fighters tend to fight in bursts, with periods of circling in between.

What about a battle on a field ala Braveheart? By RAW it would seem that any fighter not dead or a world-class athlete would drop from exhaustion within about a minute or two.

 

[Dan True]

Is this actually in the book (or errata) or is it just a house rule?

It is how I understand the rule. If you spend say 1 round doing nothing buy circling the opponent, then you have not spend those CAs on "Heavy Activity" and thus cannot be called upon to test for fatigue. Of course if the opponent jumps forward so you have to parry and block again, then your opponent is not giving you the chance to relax to exhaust you.

It may be that I am misreading the rule, but it makes sense to me with my experience of reenactment fighting (which is not as extensive as others in here).

What about a battle on a field ala Braveheart? By RAW it would seem that any fighter not dead or a world-class athlete would drop from exhaustion within about a minute or two.

Well, if they're fighting in the front rank all the time, then yes they will likely drop from exhaustion pretty quickly. This is why the Romans had systems for constantly changing the front rank of their Centurions, to replenish the front-rank troops before they tire.
For the braveheart example, both the Scottish and British have not learned the lessons of formation fighting, and therefore just fights as a great mob. In these battles the individual soldier is responsible for drawing back from fighting sometime, to rest a bit. This is of course not very effective and I am pretty certain real-world battles like that would see a huge amount of dead due to them being too tired to defend themselves properly.

In real-world large scale battles, which would often draw on for hours (just look at Hastings), at lot of the time is spent resting, relocating, getting water to front-line troops and so on. All troops are only committed at once when a significant advantage has been achieved or something similar. Commanders knew that committing all your troops at once was an all-or-nothing venture, as if they did not break through then they would properly be too tired to do much else for the rest of the day.

Another reason for using horses

- Dan