Khamulcalle
Mongoose
if A and B are in a bar fight and they both will fight with their fists, will they gain an additional CA due to the use of both hans (as you get if using a shield or two weapons)?
/K
/K
Extra CA when fighting with both fists?
- Thread starter Khamulcalle
- Start date
RosenMcStern
Mongoose
I would definitely not allow this for a mere "Brawl" based fighting style. However, for a Martial Arts type Combat style, an additional CA for being able to use both hands (actually, both hands and fists) could be appropriate.
Khamulcalle
Mongoose
If you take a boxer who can hit a head 26 times during 5 second, I say you dont have to be a martial arts dude to get the extra CA. (I saw a american boxer do that on Sports Science) He also was twice as fast as a diamond back rattlesnake 
/K
/K
Khamulcalle
Mongoose
Yes, true and they uses different types of attacks. I see more of hands, elbows head butts in this type of brawls than swirling kicks and karate chops...
I can still see adventures getting a extra CA.
I can still see adventures getting a extra CA.
Jujitsudave
Mongoose
I don't believe that an extra CA should be gained for the same reason animal like creatures don't get an extra CA for using 2 claws instead of one.
I would allow an 1 extra unarmed CA for a combatant that happens to be in the appropriate range for it in addition to his weapons.
I would allow an 1 extra unarmed CA for a combatant that happens to be in the appropriate range for it in addition to his weapons.
however the RAW say its fine for
you to fire your flintlock single shot psitol at someone and continue to get a full extra CA even though its obviously unloaded.
You get an extra CA for having a penknife in your off hand.
Unarmed combat is already heavily penalised wheras the inheritant advantages of the shield (abilty to parry larger and missile weapons) are enhanced by getting an extra CA as well.
In Elric, the Elenoin get an extra 2 CA for their hair
Why shouldn't a creature that attacks with say, two sword like claws get +1 CA
CA are only based on Stats and equipment and have nothing to do with skill.
you to fire your flintlock single shot psitol at someone and continue to get a full extra CA even though its obviously unloaded.
You get an extra CA for having a penknife in your off hand.
Unarmed combat is already heavily penalised wheras the inheritant advantages of the shield (abilty to parry larger and missile weapons) are enhanced by getting an extra CA as well.
In Elric, the Elenoin get an extra 2 CA for their hair
Why shouldn't a creature that attacks with say, two sword like claws get +1 CA
CA are only based on Stats and equipment and have nothing to do with skill.
Jujitsudave
Mongoose
That CA is spent loading the weapon or other fun things. Discharging a weapon takes little time and effort.
As you should when holding any kind of weapon. Such a weapon may be insignificant but that is reflected in it's damage, not it's use.
Unarmed combat should be penalized heavily. As I have suggested in other threads, unarmed combat is actually a bit overly deadly than would be realistic. It also utilizes full body motions as a whole rather than simply 2 fists and assumes that you are throwing down full bore when engaged. It takes quite a few moves against a resisting opponent to hit someone hard enough to actually lose Hit Points. Shields are done right by this game. In the old days that adage was that if you lost your shield, you were as good as dead. If anything, the advantage that shields provide is modest. Unlike in D&D, the amount of limbs you have is not a direct representation of the # of attacks you recieve.
I don't know about Elric, but that sounds broken and lame.
As well they should be. There is something to be said for having the right tools for the job. Medieval knights didn't wear chainmail because it's pretty. They weren't masters of the battlefield for nothing.
Not my point - my point is that you get a CA in every round regardless of whether a wepaon is useful or not, or even if its used or not. In unarmed combat you are likely to use more than one limb?Jujitsudave said:
nope thats not how the game works - you can use the extra CA to swing your broadsword so its "real" damage is that of a broadsword - there is nothing in the rules that states you may use the off hand weapon for anything.Jujitsudave said:
Shelds are good - nothing wrong with that - its the free CA I object to - the Elenoin example for instance - you have to use the extra CA for their hair, but shields, toothpicks, etc - you don'tJujitsudave said:
Nope elenoin are powerful and dangerous Demons - their hair - a natural weapon like er say hands, is alive and used in combatJujitsudave said:
your ignoring my point - why does a Master swordsman not get extra CA rather than someone who just picks up a dagger, or a bit of wood?Jujitsudave said:
Jujitsudave
Mongoose
I think I can concede to your point in this. If you aren't using, say, the shield or off hand weapon why get the extra CA? That makes sense but I believe they still get that CA for the sake of ease in bookeeping. There is the point that with that extra weapon even if it isn't actively used, it's still to be available as cover and allows the combatant more actions with the main weapon.
Yes it is. That weapon is still an off-hand weapon, even if it's better used to open letters.
I think shields are done just fine. You made it sound like the Elenoin are some kind of specialized warrior, but how can you compare a guy in an unarmed brawl with a demon-chick using magic hair? It's a whole different animal. Once you start getting into the special abilities of demons, the rules are out the window.
No offence to the Elric crowd, I didn't know what they were. Now that I do, they sound kinda neat.
Because it's not the master swordsman's skills that give him an extra attack (unless there is a cool Hero ability) but his reaction time indicated by his Dex / Int stats. As the swordsman grows in his practice, these stats also grow from use and exercise. Another swordsman may have the same level of experience and skill, but may be fat and out of shape with crappy reactions indicated by worse stats.
Keep in mind the initial question was to barroom sluggers and not master swordsmen. A martial arts practicioner on the other hand may very well recieve an extra CA. Until some official rules come out, we will never know beyond house ruling.
MRQ2 has a lot of abstraction about certain things in regards to combat. I'm not really a big fan of the idea that you gain a bonus CA just for holding a weapon or shield in your off-hand. I would rather see the bonus CA granted for high skill. But given the level of abstraction, I can live with the RAW.
I think the bonus is sort of meant to help balance between fighting with a big two handed weapon which tends to be slow but does a lot of damage and fighting with two smaller weapons, one in each hand, which tend to be quicker but do less damage. MRQ2 sort of separates how quickly you act (SR) from how many times you can act (CA's). If you grant a bonus CA based on skill you lose a bit of that balance as two handed weapons would have the same potential to gain that bonus CA as fighting with a weapon in each hand, plus their added benefits of having greater reach and doing more damage. To maintain a sense of balance between the two you would have to factor in things like weapon speed and then you might have to modify the SR/CA setup. In the end I think it would all be more trouble than its worth, but YMMV.
I think the bonus is sort of meant to help balance between fighting with a big two handed weapon which tends to be slow but does a lot of damage and fighting with two smaller weapons, one in each hand, which tend to be quicker but do less damage. MRQ2 sort of separates how quickly you act (SR) from how many times you can act (CA's). If you grant a bonus CA based on skill you lose a bit of that balance as two handed weapons would have the same potential to gain that bonus CA as fighting with a weapon in each hand, plus their added benefits of having greater reach and doing more damage. To maintain a sense of balance between the two you would have to factor in things like weapon speed and then you might have to modify the SR/CA setup. In the end I think it would all be more trouble than its worth, but YMMV.
Deleriad
Mongoose
I would add two things to this debate. It's clearly an issue because it frequently pops up.
1) Once you start adding extra CAs for attacking with two fists then suddenly what happens is everyone has an extra CA. E.g. I could use a Greatsword and horned helmet as a Combat Style. At this point the extra CA has become meaningless.
2) To an extent CAs scale with skill. The higher your skill the more likely you are to make use of the CAs. So someone with 4 CAs and 50% skill is going to be less effective than someone with 3 CAs and 100% skill. I have in the past played with CAs increasing through skill but it really gives double duty to the higher skill. Don't forget as well that skill over 100% also deducts from an opponent's skill.
It is a common house rule to enforce that the bonus CA be used with the other weapon which does mitigate against the dafter excesses of it.
It is perfectly reasonable to consider a variant of RQ where characters have a fixed number of CAs (say 3) with extra CAs based on skill ratings. It would have its pros and cons.
1) Once you start adding extra CAs for attacking with two fists then suddenly what happens is everyone has an extra CA. E.g. I could use a Greatsword and horned helmet as a Combat Style. At this point the extra CA has become meaningless.
2) To an extent CAs scale with skill. The higher your skill the more likely you are to make use of the CAs. So someone with 4 CAs and 50% skill is going to be less effective than someone with 3 CAs and 100% skill. I have in the past played with CAs increasing through skill but it really gives double duty to the higher skill. Don't forget as well that skill over 100% also deducts from an opponent's skill.
It is a common house rule to enforce that the bonus CA be used with the other weapon which does mitigate against the dafter excesses of it.
It is perfectly reasonable to consider a variant of RQ where characters have a fixed number of CAs (say 3) with extra CAs based on skill ratings. It would have its pros and cons.
