Everyday Orlanth

[Rurik]

Back in the old days uncivilised unruly barbarians just worshipped Orlanth. As theology evolved they started worshiping different aspects of Orlanth - there was Adventurous, and Thunderous, etc. - but most cattle herding farm plowing hardworking simple unruly barbarian types just worshiped a rather plain Orlanth Allfather aspect.

In MRQ there is no Allfather aspect mentioned or documented. I am considering a couple of approaches and curious what others think. First is to just have all Orlanthi worship one of the published aspects.

Second is to have most Orlanthi worship Allfather and just fudge it until I or someone else writes up the Allfather aspect.

Part of me suspects Allfather got cut because the aspect was not important to most adventurers (though I kinda disagree with that) - which would be too bad as it is an essential part of Orlanthi culture and key at least for NPC's. Unless of course it is not a part of MRQ's take on Glorantha, and everybody always worships one of the other aspects.

Thoughts?

 

[Trifletraxor]

I don't really like all the subcults, aspects and hero cults which have popped up together with hero wars/heroquest. It's splitting the worship of a god into several different religions, and makes me lose the understanding of the individual gods. They're okay as long as they're available to all who quilify, but when every subcult wants its own tithing, it's a bit too much for me.


(A bit off topic: I like the monomyth - simple and easy, and gives you a good sense the myth is real. When every single religion have totally different views on creation and events before time, the sense of realness disappears, cause they're obviously all wrong.)

SGL.

 

[Osentalka]

85 % of the Heortlings/Orlanthi still worship Orlanth and Ernalda only.
85 % of this majority worships the Orlanth Allfather and the Ernalda Allmother.
All the cults WE (players) like most, are the minority in Heortling/Orlanthi life.

I have no problem with Orlanth Adventurous, Dragonslayer, Leader, Thunderous etc. Aspects as well as the numberous hero cults.

For instance Zeus was a god for more than just one profession, social rank, and was worshipped for a lot of things he was responsible for, or as propietory worship, so that he WONDN´T do something everybody was afraid of.

Face it Glorantha is more than the simple game world as it was in the days of RQ2. Glorantha has evolved, to much more than any game setting before.
You see this as fault? I see it as a feature!

Cheers

Osentalka

 

[Voriof]

Back in the old days uncivilised unruly barbarians just worshipped Orlanth. As theology evolved they started worshiping different aspects of Orlanth - there was Adventurous, and Thunderous, etc. - but most cattle herding farm plowing hardworking simple unruly barbarian types just worshiped a rather plain Orlanth Allfather aspect.

Not really. Orlanth is a damned big thing. Mortals can only comprehend part of his totalith. Gods and demi-gods can comprehend more of him and are better able to pass these understandings on to their worshippers.

In MRQ there is no Allfather aspect mentioned or documented. I am considering a couple of approaches and curious what others think. First is to just have all Orlanthi worship one of the published aspects.

Quite right. I felt that I ws not going to emulate HeroQuest. In many cases, these cults and subcults are represented by a single rune spell. For example, worship of Vangath the Flyer becomes the aquisition of the Flight (or Telekensis) rune spell.

Second is to have most Orlanthi worship Allfather and just fudge it until I or someone else writes up the Allfather aspect.

That might be considered to be Barntar. I suspect ther ewas a great reformation of the cults after the excess of the EWF and Alakoring's actions to reign in the priesthood. I suspect that hte Allfather with its rulership aspects, is more of a modern creation.... not that I'm entirely happy with the Allfather aspect either.

Part of me suspects Allfather got cut because the aspect was not important to most adventurers (though I kinda disagree with that) - which would be too bad as it is an essential part of Orlanthi culture and key at least for NPC's. Unless of course it is not a part of MRQ's take on Glorantha, and everybody always worships one of the other aspects.

Thoughts?

MRQ is not as granular in its cult layout as HeroQuest is. Allfather is not ncessar as one already has Barntar and Chieftain, which pretty much cover the gambut of Orlanth Allfather. I might have named Barntar as Orlanth the Farmer but felt that was too much Orlanth. There was a reference to that being a variant of the Barntar cult but that seems to have been edited out at some point (I may have remove it myself as extraneous).

Many NPC oriented cults did not make the cut for the published version of Cults. Perhaps someday they will be made available.
Jeff

 

[Voriof]

(A bit off topic: I like the monomyth - simple and easy, and gives you a good sense the myth is real. When every single religion have totally different views on creation and events before time, the sense of realness disappears, cause they're obviously all wrong.)

SGL.

Or they are all right. You're looking for a objective answer and that's an argument that never works out well for anyone involved.

For you perhaps. I find the various stories enlightening and make the place more real. I suspect you're looking for the One True Answer. The God Learners tried that... The "One True Answer" is definitely on Nick's list of things he hates about Glorantha.

Jeff

 

[B_Steele]

Dammit Jeff, you beat me to it.

The more severed notions of the various religious subsects I believe is far MORE believable than simply everyone believing in one version of the story just because they live here or there. Religion is a tough thing for anyone to get their mind around, and the best part is...because of how strong faith is on Glorantha, everyone is right in their own way.

Look at it this way: we have made Gloranthan religion stronger for the individual by giving them a tighter idea of their own faith. Also, it might be this segmentation of faiths that is blamed for the end of the Imperial Age...and why the 3rd Age sees their religions in their wider scope of reference.

Right and wrong is difficult to use in any religious sense.

Cheers,
Bry

 

[Voriof]

Dammit Jeff, you beat me to it.

The more severed notions of the various religious subsects I believe is far MORE believable than simply everyone believing in one version of the story just because they live here or there. Religion is a tough thing for anyone to get their mind around, and the best part is...because of how strong faith is on Glorantha, everyone is right in their own way.

Especially in the post-modernist society we live in. A signicant segment of the gaming population regards religion as uncool in any form and another regard it as simply "I worship whatever gives me the most plusses"

And we all know that Humakt gives the most Plusses. Or did. In my tiny, dark little heart, I still wish to see a cage match between Shargash and Humakt.

Unfortunately, some of the plusses which are... interesting... do not seem to be available. Uleria and Tolat's lovemaking powers seem curiously absent in the 2nd Age.

Look at it this way: we have made Gloranthan religion stronger for the individual by giving them a tighter idea of their own faith. Also, it might be this segmentation of faiths that is blamed for the end of the Imperial Age...and why the 3rd Age sees their religions in their wider scope of reference.

Right and wrong is difficult to use in any religious sense.

Cheers,
Bry

For the love of all that is holy, do not start the Objective/Subjective Wars again. (It was the Second Age of Glorantha when the Objective/Subjective Wars came upon us all).

The Second Age saw amazing abuse and concentration of magical powers. Not just among the God Learners and EWF (who were the worst offenders) but among the Dara Happans, who in the end 'purified' their religion to the opoint of almost destroying it. The elves had a great unifying elf-breed which abruptly died out after spreading the jungles to an unheard of extent in Pamaltea.

Oh, and remember, in the MRQ sense, the cults are actually several different groupings of similar cults. In HeroQuest, these subcultsa would be defined but only some (or one) of these would be worshipped in a single village. For example, a village might have Tatouth the Scout worshippers but no Starkval the Weaponthane types. Both would be considered Orlanth Adventurer worshippers in MRQ terms.

Think about the various aspects of the Hindu deities. Dozens and dozens of avatars. Each was worshipped independently in a different region but only when travel and trade became much easier did these seaparate deities be worshipped as a single entity. Similar artifacts of travel are created by the God Learner overview, Player Character Knowledge, and the spread of trade and travel. The first two create a false image of what the situation is and the latter creates a more regional breakdown of cults more similar to the MRQ view than the fine-tuned HQ one.

Hope this is helpeful... ish.

Jeff

 

[Trifletraxor]

Or they are all right. You're looking for a objective answer and that's an argument that never works out well for anyone involved.

yes, yes, yes... what i'm trying to say: the more you try to make gloranthan mythology like real world religion, the less real it feels. Take the Orlanth and Yelm pantheons. As described in River of Craddles and Sun County, their mythology interact. That is, they both have the same myths, but interpret it differently. That way, at least you know the myth is true, but is free to interpret it yourself. Then you have Greg's other version where the sun wasn't killed, it was actually his son, then the sun fragmented, but they are all right anyway. Great...

The "One True Answer" is definitely on Nick's list of things he hates about Glorantha.

No. It's not.

SGL.

 

[Trifletraxor]

Look at it this way: we have made Gloranthan religion stronger for the individual by giving them a tighter idea of their own faith. Also, it might be this segmentation of faiths that is blamed for the end of the Imperial Age...and why the 3rd Age sees their religions in their wider scope of reference.

What??? :?

SGL.

 

[Rurik]

Back in the old days uncivilised unruly barbarians just worshipped Orlanth. As theology evolved they started worshiping different aspects of Orlanth - there was Adventurous, and Thunderous, etc. - but most cattle herding farm plowing hardworking simple unruly barbarian types just worshiped a rather plain Orlanth Allfather aspect.

Not really. Orlanth is a damned big thing. Mortals can only comprehend part of his totalith. Gods and demi-gods can comprehend more of him and are better able to pass these understandings on to their worshippers.

What I was specificaly referring to was that when RQ 1/2 were initially released there was a cult just called 'Orlanth' if I recall correctly, and it was all encompassing. From a gamer standpoint. I realise that never in the game world as we know it today there was just a single aspect.

In MRQ there is no Allfather aspect mentioned or documented. I am considering a couple of approaches and curious what others think. First is to just have all Orlanthi worship one of the published aspects.

Quite right. I felt that I ws not going to emulate HeroQuest. In many cases, these cults and subcults are represented by a single rune spell. For example, worship of Vangath the Flyer becomes the aquisition of the Flight (or Telekensis) rune spell.

That is what I was leaning towards to make stuff fit with the published works.

Second is to have most Orlanthi worship Allfather and just fudge it until I or someone else writes up the Allfather aspect.

That might be considered to be Barntar. I suspect ther ewas a great reformation of the cults after the excess of the EWF and Alakoring's actions to reign in the priesthood. I suspect that hte Allfather with its rulership aspects, is more of a modern creation.... not that I'm entirely happy with the Allfather aspect either.

This is good to hear, one of the first NPC's I was detailing, a pretty standard clan member, ended up an initiate of Orlanth Thunderous and Barntar, so that seems to work in line with what you intended for MRQ.

Part of me suspects Allfather got cut because the aspect was not important to most adventurers (though I kinda disagree with that) - which would be too bad as it is an essential part of Orlanthi culture and key at least for NPC's. Unless of course it is not a part of MRQ's take on Glorantha, and everybody always worships one of the other aspects.

Thoughts?

MRQ is not as granular in its cult layout as HeroQuest is. Allfather is not ncessar as one already has Barntar and Chieftain, which pretty much cover the gambut of Orlanth Allfather. I might have named Barntar as Orlanth the Farmer but felt that was too much Orlanth. There was a reference to that being a variant of the Barntar cult but that seems to have been edited out at some point (I may have remove it myself as extraneous).

Many NPC oriented cults did not make the cut for the published version of Cults. Perhaps someday they will be made available.
Jeff

One of the hard parts in actually working on material for MRQ can be knowing what the authors intent was or what got changed/cut purely for editorial reasons (page count, etc).

Thank you for your time and clarifications on these matters.

 

[Quire]

What I was specificaly referring to was that when RQ 1/2 were initially released there was a cult just called 'Orlanth' if I recall correctly, and it was all encompassing.

The RQ2 rulebook in my grubby paws mentions Orlanth Adventurous, Orlanth Thunderous, and Orlanth Rex. The write-up is on Orlanth Adventurous, 'the most widespread, for this god-form appeals to those who wander and adventure'.

There are only two other write-ups - one for The Black Fang Brotherhood, and one for...guess who?

- Q

 

[Rurik]

What I was specificaly referring to was that when RQ 1/2 were initially released there was a cult just called 'Orlanth' if I recall correctly, and it was all encompassing.

The RQ2 rulebook in my grubby paws mentions Orlanth Adventurous, Orlanth Thunderous, and Orlanth Rex. The write-up is on Orlanth Adventurous, 'the most widespread, for this god-form appeals to those who wander and adventure'.

There are only two other write-ups - one for The Black Fang Brotherhood, and one for...guess who?

- Q

I stand corrected. Though I'm pretty sure when I played back then there was pretty much just an Orlanth cult orlanthi worshipped. Were the other aspects ever written up? Or did the uber-brief summaries in GoG have just a single Orlanth? I'll have to check (though really it in neither here nor there as that was a long time ago and the current issue is which aspects are/should be in MRQ in the second age ).

 

[richaje]

What I was specificaly referring to was that when RQ 1/2 were initially released there was a cult just called 'Orlanth' if I recall correctly, and it was all encompassing.

The RQ2 rulebook in my grubby paws mentions Orlanth Adventurous, Orlanth Thunderous, and Orlanth Rex. The write-up is on Orlanth Adventurous, 'the most widespread, for this god-form appeals to those who wander and adventure'.

There are only two other write-ups - one for The Black Fang Brotherhood, and one for...guess who?

- Q

I stand corrected. Though I'm pretty sure when I played back then there was pretty much just an Orlanth cult orlanthi worshipped. Were the other aspects ever written up? Or did the uber-brief summaries in GoG have just a single Orlanth? I'll have to check (though really it in neither here nor there as that was a long time ago and the current issue is which aspects are/should be in MRQ in the second age ).

The cult of Orlanth was never supposed to be that simple. Way back in the days of Wyrms Footnotes (that's RQ 1/2 for you guys), Orlanth was described thusly:

"It is common for people to speak of three or four well-known forms of Orlanth as if they were comparing different gods. In some cases they are treated as different gods with competing priesthoods, religious prejudice and system snobbery. Furthermore, there are many lesser-known forms of Orlanth which are subcults also coupled with his name (such as Orlanth Goodvoice, Orlanth Heler, Orlanth Odayla, and so on). These overlappings are simply a sign of the complexity of Orlanth."

Probably for MRQ purposes, the best detailed writeup of the cults of Orlanth and Ernalda would be that in Enclosure #1 (which was written for Pendragon Pass). Jeff's writeup unfortunately had to skimp on the complexity of the cults of Orlanth for brevity's sake.

Jeff

 

[richaje]

Or they are all right. You're looking for a objective answer and that's an argument that never works out well for anyone involved.

yes, yes, yes... what i'm trying to say: the more you try to make gloranthan mythology like real world religion, the less real it feels. Take the Orlanth and Yelm pantheons. As described in River of Craddles and Sun County, their mythology interact. That is, they both have the same myths, but interpret it differently. That way, at least you know the myth is true, but is free to interpret it yourself. Then you have Greg's other version where the sun wasn't killed, it was actually his son, then the sun fragmented, but they are all right anyway. Great...

The "One True Answer" is definitely on Nick's list of things he hates about Glorantha.

No. It's not.

SGL.

OK, the "One True Glorantha" didn't get an entry in Nick's "10 Things I Hate About Glorantha" because it got its own section: "Whatever Happened to the One True Glorantha?" http://www.etyries.com/metaphys/one-true.htm

But here's my take on someone who does a lot of background writing with Greg: the "simple Monomyth" (as presented by a lot of Runequest 1/2 grognards) is just plain stupid. However, the "subtle Monomyth" is not only still valid, but is probably fundamentally correct. There will never be one definitive resolution of the various myths (any attempt to do that will be wrong), but there is an underlying structure and architecture to Gloranthan mythology. Hopefully that makes sense.

Jeff

 

[Voriof]

Thanks, Jeff. I knew that it was something that really ground Nick's gears...

From the site:

One of the more frequent and ill-informed criticisms of recent Gloranthan publications is that they have done away with the pristine clarity of earlier sources. We are told that, whereas in the Good Old Days of RQ2, mythology was always straight-forwardly explained, and universally true, and contained no contradictions, nowadays Glorantha is being made deliberately obscure and unplayable, by a cabal of gamer-hating scholars in league with that bastard Greg Stafford.

Well, I'm sorry as ever to deflate someone else's theories, especially conspiracy theories, but that's bollocks. Glorantha's mythology has always had an admirable degree of complexity, uncertainty and variability, since it first began to see print. I'm sure there are gamers out there who have always ignored this inconvenient fact, but they can hardly claim it's a novelty.

Here's a selection of RQ2-era sources, all predating RQ3 by years, and all drawn from the best available sources for Gloranthan mythology.

By the bye, I did use the excellent Enclosure #1 article for inspiration for several cults. Shargash, frex. I admit the version in MRQ is a grotesque simplifcation of the Hell God of Alkoth but hey, that's what Long Cult writeups are for.

Jeff

 

[richaje]

By the bye, I did use the excellent Enclosure #1 article for inspiration for several cults. Shargash, frex. I admit the version in MRQ is a grotesque simplifcation of the Hell God of Alkoth but hey, that's what Long Cult writeups are for.

Jeff

Keep in mind that Orlanth and Ernalda are Great Gods of Glorantha, and frankly a three page cult writeup is absurd. Jeff K. did a great job given the space constraints, but trying to condense Orlanth and Ernalda into that tiny space and format makes as much sense as trying to give rules mechanics for all of EWF draconic mysticism in just three pages.

Treat the Cults book as giving a brief sense of how a given cult may work in some temples and it works pretty well. If you misuse the Cults book by treating it like the definitive description of the cult and it will fail badly. Unfortunately, folk have insisted on using the old Gods of Glorantha cult format - even though it really does not work well to describe these cults. Given those tremendous limitations, I think Jeff K. did a fantastic job.

Jeff

Jeff

 

[frogspawner]

yes, yes, yes... what i'm trying to say: the more you try to make gloranthan mythology like real world religion, the less real it feels.

Perhaps this is like a problem that JRR Tolkien apparently worried about: giving hints of historical details lets the reader imagine a rich back-story, but actually telling that story can fall flat for want of similar hints and detracts from the original. Have we now got too much detail about Glorantha?

 

[homerjsinnott]

yes, yes, yes... what i'm trying to say: the more you try to make gloranthan mythology like real world religion, the less real it feels.

Perhaps this is like a problem that JRR Tolkien apparently worried about: giving hints of historical details lets the reader imagine a rich back-story, but actually telling that story can fall flat for want of similar hints and detracts from the original. Have we now got too much detail about Glorantha?

I have some sympathy with Trif here, I think you can have too much detail(or perhaps too many subcults not enough detail perhaps?) but fortunately I don't think there has been much of that. I have more problem with the dull/exciting split that is so rife in Glorantha, exempliified by the Interesting Orlanthi (gotta love those vikings :roll: :roll: ) vs the dull yelmites (look at those Babylonians/Persians etc they were so boring!) and the those whacky trolls vs those wooden (sic) elves bit.




The "oh no! Yelm didn't get killed /sacrifice himself he just split up" bit annoys me as well.

 

[Voriof]

I have some sympathy with Trif here, I think you can have too much detail(or perhaps too many subcults not enough detail perhaps?) but fortunately I don't think there has been much of that. I have more problem with the dull/exciting split that is so rife in Glorantha, exempliified by the Interesting Orlanthi (gotta love those vikings :roll: :roll: ) vs the dull yelmites (look at those Babylonians/Persians etc they were so boring!) and the those whacky trolls vs those wooden (sic) elves bit.

Depends on what you've been reading. Mind you, it also depends on what cults you've read. There are some fun Yelmic cults out there these days. Shargash, for example. There's a loyal variant of Elmal (Sankadovar) who was deleted from CoG who is a bit more player-friendly than Yelmalio. I like to think that the MRQ version of Yelm is a bit more flexible and useful than previous incarnations of the Emperor of Heaven.

The "oh no! Yelm didn't get killed /sacrifice himself he just split up" bit annoys me as well.

A suggestion? Sit down and read some mesopotamian myths. I heartily recommend Innana's Boat (get an unexpergated translation), Gilgamesh, and such. Then think of Shargash as Gilgamesh. Go from there. Yelm as Marduk. Ishtar as... mmm... whomever you like. My views on the Underworld are highly coloured by these works.

Yelm split up. But the parts that went to the underworld or became other Gods such as Antrius and Bijif (who had a heck of a trip to Hell, I think). Again, Babylonian myth might help... or even some of the Aztec hell-myths. Playing games with the gods of Hell.

There's a fair number of active and intersting Yelmic myths aluded to in the various Unfinished Works and on the Glorantha Myth site run by Oliver Bernutz.

More detail, I think... of the right sort.

Jeff

 

[richaje]

The "oh no! Yelm didn't get killed /sacrifice himself he just split up" bit annoys me as well.

Why? It is correct - from the Yelmic religion's experience. If you come with me to a Yelmic high ceremony you can experience it too - assuming that you are of the proper caste and lineage. Both the Orlanthi understanding of the Death of the Evil Emperor and the Yelmic understanding of the Doom Conjunction are correct and verifiable. Just not completely consistent with each other.

Jeff