Escorts!

[AnotherDilbert]

First everyones favourite "less than 2000 dT" missile nuisance:

Missile Frigate, 1990 dT, Crew: 58, MCr 2200
J-3, 9G, Armour 15, streamlined and fuel purification for wilderness refuelling.
Drop tank collar included for occasional rift passing.
Armament: Missiles, 102 missiles/attack, optionally additional 84 missiles/attack in modules
Defences: Armour 15, two 90 dT modules.

TL 15              HullP 875,6                      2 161      
                         Desired  Rat   #   dTonn    Cost   Power  Hardp  Crew
Hull                                         1990             398     19  
Config  Streamlined          2     2                  184      
Hull strength  Reinforced    3     3            
Armour  Bonded Superdense   20    15          239     221      
Rad Shielding                1     1           50      
                  
JumpD  Budget,Late           3     3    1     154     174     597           4
ManœuvreD  VAdv,2*EneEff     9     9    1     179     448     896           5
PowerP                                  1      82     163    1635           2
                  
Drop Tank Collar             3     3    1       2       1      
Fuel, Jump                   3     3    1     597        
Fuel, Power                  4     4    1       8        
Fuel Purification         24 h  24 h    1      30       1      
                  
Bridge                       1          1      40      10      
    Holographic              1          1               2      
Comp         CORE/70        14    70    1              80      
Backup Comp  m/15            3    15    1               2      
Evade/3  25                                             3      
Launch/3  15                                           16      
Point Defence/2  15                                    12      
                  
Sensors  Advanced            9     4    1       5       5       6    
Array  Rapid Extension       9     2    1      10      21      
Extension Net                  
Signal Processing  Enhanced  9     2    1       2       8       2    
Countermeasures  Military    9     2    1      15      28       2    
                  
Staterooms                100%    32   32     128      16      
Common Areas               25%   25%    1      32       3      
Briefing Room                1          1       4       1      
Library                      1          1       4       4      
Medical Bay  10% of crew     1          2       8       4      
Workshop                     1          1       6       1      
Armoury                      1          3       6       2      
Brig                         1          1       4       0      
Low Berths                   5          5       3       0       1    
Cargo                                           4        
                  
90 dT Module                 2          2     180             300     10   10
                  

Medium Bay                  
Missile  High Technology     3  TL10    3     210     113      30      3    3
Barbette                  
Missile  High Technology     6  TL10    6      21      36              6    6
                  
Missiles  102 missiles/att  12       1224      18     551      
                  

                  
                  
Module PD                               5      90     110     150      5  



Module Missile  Medium bay    24        1      70      38      10      1    1
                Barbette       5        3      10,5    18              3    3
                Turret         3        1       0,7     4,4     1      1    1
  Missiles                    42      504       8,75  226,8      
                                               89,95  287,2    11      5  




                  
Crew                58              
  Command            6              
  Bridge             4              
      Pilot                3            
      Astrogator           1            
  Sensor & EW        8              
  Engineer          16              
      Engineer            12            
      Maintenance          3,98            
  Service            3              
      Admin                1,99            
      Medic                0,424916667            
      Steward        0            
  Gunner            21              
  Flight  
  Troops             0

Modules include:
PD: 5 PD Batteries, Type III, MCr 110
Missile Bay: 42 missiles/attack, MCr 60 + MCr 230 for the missiles

 

[Chas]

Yes. This is where there should be a missile based ship for anti-fighter / anti-rider business / low tech enemies. This is a major problem for the special 2K rider I've done, even if it's only using advanced missiles.

A good thread, I was just going to start one for the 2K frigate I'm just winding up.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And a small "super fighter" sized flying bay:

Fusion Corvette, 600 dT, Crew: 17, MCr 490
J-3, 9G, Armour 15, streamlined and fuel purification for wilderness refuelling.
Drop tank collar included for occasional rift passing.
Armament: 100dT module (optional Fusion Gun bay)
Defences: Armour 15, 100dT module (optional PD Batteries)

TL 15                  HullP 240                      487     
                         Desired  Rat   #   dTonn    Cost   Power  Hardp  Crew
Hull                                          600            120      6  
Config  Streamlined          2     2                   42      
Hull strength  Standard      2     2            
Armour  Bonded Superdense   20    15           72      50      
Rad Shielding                1     1           15      
                  
JumpD  Budget,Late           3     3    1      50      56    180            1
ManœuvreD  VAdv,2*EneEff     9     9    1      54     135    270            2
PowerP                                  1      28      55    550            1
                  
Drop Tank Collar             3     3    1       1       0      
Fuel, Jump                   3     3    1     180        
Fuel, Power                  4     4    1       3        
Fuel Purification         24 h  24 h    1       9       0      
                  
Bridge                       1          1      20       3      
    Holographic              1          1               1      
Comp         CORE/50        10    50    1              60      
Backup Comp  m/15            3    15    1               2      
Evade/3             25                                  3      
Fire Control/5      25                                                       
Point Defence/2     15                
                  
Sensors  Advanced            9     4    1       5       5      6    
Array  Rapid Extension       9     2    1      10      21      
Extension Net                  
Signal Processing  Enhanced  9     2    1       2       8      2    
Countermeasures  Suit        1     1    1       2       4      1    
                  
Staterooms                100%    10   10      40       5      
Common Areas               25%    0%    1          
Briefing Room                1          1       4       1      
Library                      1          1       4       4      
Medical Bay  10% of crew     1          1       4       2      
Workshop                     1          1       6       1      
Armoury                      1          1       2       1      
Brig                  
Low Berths                   2          2       1       0      1    
Cargo                                           4        
                  
100 dT Module                 1         1     100            150      5    1
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
Module PD  PD Battery                   5      90     110    150      5  
           Point Defence/2                             16      
                                               90     126    150      5  


Module Gun  Fusion Bay                  1     100      24     80      1    1
            Fire Control/5                             10      
                                              100      34     80      1    1



Crew                17              
  Command            2              
  Bridge             4              
      Pilot                3            
      Astrogator           1            
  Sensor & EW        3              
  Engineer           5              
      Engineer             4            
      Maintenance          1,2            
  Service            1              
      Admin                0,6            
      Medic                0,121666667            
      Steward        0            
  Gunner             2              
  Flight  
  Troops             0

Modules include:
Gun: Medium Fusion Bay (Long Range, HYield), Fire Control/5, MCr 34.
PD: 5 PD Batteries, Type III, Point defence/2, MCr 126

 

[Chas]

BTW, I'm not sure if you've done this deliberately on this but I note a lot of your designs are streamlined when partially stream-lined will do (and can use the close configuration) in that the partially streamlined will still allow wilderness gas giant skimming. It's in the core rule book but not in High Guard.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

BTW, I'm not sure if you've done this deliberately on this but I note a lot of your designs are streamlined when partially stream-lined will do (and can use the close configuration) in that the partially streamlined will still allow wilderness gas giant skimming. It's in the core rule book but not in High Guard.

Maybe... Ocean refuelling might require streamlining. Basically I use streamlining for ocean refuelling. I have used ye old CT TCS rules for refuelling, lacking other squadron refuelling rules.

The presence of a gas giant allows streamlined starships to refuel by skimming...

On the other hand:

Partial streamlining allows a ship to skim gas giants and enter Atmosphere codes of 3 or less, acting in the same way as streamlined ships. In other atmospheres, the ship will be ponderous and unresponsive, reliant on its thrusters to keep it aloft. All Pilot checks will be made with DM-2.

OK, by RAW partially streamlined ships should be able to refuel everywhere. Streamlining is not required. (Drop tank shenanigans are back in season!)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Basic Missile Frigate, 1990 dT, Crew: 58, MCr 2685 (MCr 1575 + MCr 1010 for missiles).
J-3, 9G, Armour 15, streamlined and fuel purification for wilderness refuelling.
Drop tank collar included for occasional rift passing.
Armament: Missiles, 187 missiles/attack. 12 attacks in magazine.
Defences: Armour 15.

TL 15                  HullP 875,6                  2 685      
                         Desired  Rat   #   dTonn    Cost   Power  Hardp  Crew
Hull                                         1990            398     19  
Config  Streamlined          2     2                  169      
Hull strength  Reinforced    3     3            
Armour  Bonded Superdense   20    15          239     203      
Rad Shielding                1     1                   50      
                  
JumpD  Budget,Late           3     3    1     154     174    597            4
ManœuvreD  VAdv,2*EneEff     9     9    1     179     448    896            5
PowerP                                  1      69     138   1376            2
                  
Drop Tank Collar             3     3    1       2       1      
Fuel, Jump                   3     3    1     597        
Fuel, Power                  4     4    1       7        
Fuel Purification         24 h  24 h    1      30       1      
                  
Bridge                       1          1      40      10      
    Holographic              1          1               2      
Comp         CORE/70        14    70    1              80      
Backup Comp  m/15            3    15    1               2      
Evade/3           25                                    3      
Launch/3          15                                   16      
Point Defence/2   15                                        
                  
Sensors  Advanced            9     4    1       5       5      6    
Array  Rapid Extension       9     2    1      10      21      
Extension Net                  
Signal Processing  Enhanced  9     2    1       2       8      2    
Countermeasures  Military    9     2    1      15      28      2    
                  
Staterooms                100%    32   32     128      16      
Common Areas               25%   25%    1      32       3      
Briefing Room                1          1       4       1      
Library                      1          1       4       4      
Medical Bay  10% of crew     1          2       8       4      
Workshop                     1          1       6       1      
Armoury                      1          3       6       2      
Brig                         1          1       4       0      
Low Berths                   5          5       3       0       1    
Cargo                                           6        

Medium Bay                  
Missile  High Technology     6  TL10    6     420     225      60     6     6
Barbette                  
Missile  High Technology     2  TL10    2       7      12             2     2
Turret                  
Missile  High Technology    11  TL10   11       8      48      11    11    11
                  
Missiles  187 missiles/att  12       2244       6    1010

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Basic Torpedo Frigate, 1990 dT, Crew: 40, MCr 1755 (MCr 1453 + MCr 302 for missiles).
J-3, 9G, Armour 15, streamlined and fuel purification for wilderness refuelling.
Drop tank collar included for occasional rift passing.
Armament: Torpedoes, 42 torpedoes/attack. 12 attacks in magazine.
Defences: Armour 15.

TL 15                  HullP 875,6                  1 755      
                         Desired  Rat   #   dTonn    Cost   Power  Hardp  Crew
Hull                                         1990            398     19  
Config  Streamlined          2     2                  169      
Hull strength  Reinforced    3     3            
Armour  Bonded Superdense   20    15          239     203      
Rad Shielding                1     1                   50      
                  
JumpD  Budget,Late           3     3    1     154     174    597            4
ManœuvreD  VAdv,2*EneEff     9     9    1     179     448    896            5
PowerP                                  1      67     134   1339            2

Drop Tank Collar             3     3    1       2       1      
Fuel, Jump                   3     3    1     597        
Fuel, Power                  4     4    1       7        
Fuel Purification         24 h  24 h    1      30       1      
                  
Bridge                       1          1      40      10      
    Holographic              1          1               2      
Comp         CORE/70        14    70    1              80      
Backup Comp  m/15            3    15    1               2      
Evade/3           25                                    3      
Launch/3          15                                   16      
Point Defence/2   15                                        
                  
Sensors  Advanced            9     4    1       5       5      6    
Array  Rapid Extension       9     2    1      10      21      
Extension Net                  
Signal Processing  Enhanced  9     2    1       2       8      2    
Countermeasures  Military    9     2    1      15      28      2    
                  
Staterooms                100%    22   22      88      11      
Common Areas               25%   25%    1      22       2      
Briefing Room                1          1       4       1      
Library                      1          1       4       4      
Medical Bay  10% of crew     1          2       8       4      
Workshop                     1          1       6       1      
Armoury                      1          3       6       2      
Brig                         1          1       4       0      
Low Berths                   5          5       3       0       1    
Cargo                                           6        

Large Bay                  
Torpedo  High Technology     1  TL12    1     350      45      25     1     1
Medium Bay                  
Torpedo  High Technology     1  TL12    1      70       9       5     1     1
Small Bay                  
Torpedo  High Technology     2  TL12    2      70       9       4     2     2
                  
Torpedoes  42 torps/att     12        504             302

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If we compare these basic frigates the cost of missiles makes the the missile frigate much more expensive. For the same budget we can buy more torpedo ships. So for each missile ship we get 2685 / 1755 ≈ 1.5 torpedo ships.

Budget equal launch rates are 187 missiles to 42 * 1.5 = 63 torpedoes, or 3 missiles to 1 torpedo.

This comparison continues in the "A suggestion for PD" tread.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

This is a more serious attempt at an escort. It can defend other ships against missiles (using PD) of fighters (using missiles). It can enter a dogfight and kill a few fighters per attack.

"Sköld" class Escort Frigate, 2000 dT, Crew: 32, MCr 1430 + modules.
J-3, 9G, Armour 15, partial streamlining and fuel purification for wilderness refuelling.
Drop tank collar included for occasional rift passing.
Armament: Possible module.
Defences: Armour 15, four 108 dT modules with PD Batteries or missile launchers.

TL 15                      HullP 960                1 430      
                         Desired  Rat   #   dTonn    Cost   Power  Hardp  Crew
Hull                                         2000            400     20  
Config  Close Structure      4     4                  195      
Hull strength  Reinforced    3     3            
Armour  Bonded Superdense   20    15          240     233      
Rad Shielding                1     1           50      
                  
JumpD  Budget,Late           3     3    1     155     174    600           4
ManœuvreD  VAdv,2*RedSize    9     9    1     144     360   1800           4
PowerP  TL12,3*RedSize                  1     124     186   2661           4
                  
Drop Tank Collar             3     3    1       2       1      
Fuel, Jump                   3     3    1     600        
Fuel, Power                  4     4    1      12        
Fuel Purification         24 h  24 h    1      30       2      
                  
Bridge                       1          1      60      10      
    Holographic              1          1               3      
Comp         CORE/70        14    70    1              80      
Backup Comp  m/15fib         3    15    1               3      
Evade/3          25                                     3      
Launch/3         15                                    16      
Point Defence/2  15                                    12      
                  
Sensors  Advanced            9     4    1       5       5      6    
Array  Rapid Extension       9     2    1      10      21      
Extension Net                9     1    1      20      20     
Signal Processing  Enhanced  9     2    1       2       8      2    
Countermeasures  Military    9     2    1      15      28      2    
                  
Staterooms                100%    18   18      72       9      
Common Areas               25%   25%    1      18       2      
Briefing Room                1          1       4       1      
Library                      1          1       4       4      
Medical Bay  10% of crew     1          1       4       2      
Workshop                     1          1       6       1      
Armoury                      1          2       2       1      
Brig                         1          1       4       0      
Low Berths                   5          5       3       0      1    
Cargo                                  32        
                  
1500 dT Module               4          4     432            450   20  
                  

                  
                  
                  
Module PD  PD Battery, Type III         5     100     110    112,5  5  
  Stateroom                             2       8       1      
                                              108     111    112,5  5  


Module Missile  Medium bay  24          1      70      38     10    1     1
                Barbette     5          4      14      24           4     4
                Stateroom               3      12       1,5      
                Missiles    44        388      11,67  174,6      
                                              108     238,1   10    5  

                  
                  
Crew                32              
  Command            3              
  Bridge             4              
      Pilot                3            
      Astrogator           1            
  Sensor & EW        5              
  Engineer          17              
      Engineer            12            
      Maintenance          4            
  Service            3              
      Admin                2            
      Medic                0,2333          
      Steward              0            
  Gunner                
  Flight                
  Troops             0

Modules include:
PD: 5 PD Batteries, Type III, MCr 111
Missile Bay: 44 missiles/attack, MCr 64 + MCr 238 for the missiles

 

[Chas]

The T1 Frigate is a cost conscious frigate designed for extended tours of duty away from a naval starport. Produced in numbers it is the eyes and ears of the Imperial Navy, fulfilling a role that was often left in the past to sector fleets, but now the T1 (Tachyons is the accepted understanding of the T) is scattered widely over the Imperium's borders - to police the shipping lanes, to perhaps watch the sector navies themselves, and play the role of a lone wolf commerce raider in time of war.

As such it is not armed to optimization, indeed the ship deliberately does not carry missiles such is its mission statement, yet the T1 has advanced computer software that can still allow it to play a role in a major battle, along side ships designed for combat space superiority.

(while happy enough with the design for what it is, I think I prefer the Jump 4 10k version, the cruising destroyer)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I had a similar idea, but I considered it a cruiser. Since you do not want to fight the big stuff with spinals and bays, it makes sense to be small enough to not be hit by the big stuff...

 

[Chas]

The light cruiser definitely has its advantages. Then you can put in your boarding craft, the deployment shuttle, the marines, a ships boat or two, workshops, maybe a mass driver bay or two. The things a big ship would have able to undertake multiple mission types, not just be a battle wagon.

 

[wbnc]

Nice design work, very solid designs.


I am trying to work up my own versions... I am just trying to work out some basic deign benchmarks and mission objectives in my head right now.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

"David" class Strike Frigate, 1900 dT, Crew: 36, MCr 1200 in bulk
J-3, 9G, Armour 15, partial streamlining and fuel purification for wilderness refuelling.
Drop tank collar included for occasional rift passing.
Armament: Large "Crit fisher" Particle bay.
Defences: Armour 15
No defences so needs to be escorted against missiles or fighters.

TL 15             HullP 836                         1 295      
                         Desired  Rat   #   dTonn    Cost   Power  Hardp  Crew
Hull                                         1900            380     19  
Config  Close Structure      4     4                  105      
Hull strength  Standard      2     2            
Armour  Bonded Superdense   20    15          228     125      
Rad Shielding                1     1                   48      
                  
JumpD  Budget,EneIneff       3     3    1     148     166    741            4
ManœuvreD  VAdv,2*RedSize    9     9    1     137     342   1710            4
PowerP  TL12,3*RedSize                  1     107     161   2300            3
                  
Drop Tank Collar             3     3    1       2       1      
Fuel, Jump                   3     3    1     570        
Fuel, Power                  4     4    1      11        
Fuel Purification         24 h  24 h    1      29       1      
                  
Bridge                       1          1      40      10      
    Holographic              1          1               2      
Comp         CORE/50        10    50    1              60      
Backup Comp  m/15 fib        3    15    1               3      
Evade/3           25                                    3      
FireControl/5     25                                   10      
                  
Sensors  Advanced            9     4    1       5       5      6    
Array  Rapid Extension       9     2    1      10      21      
Extension Net                9     1    1      19      19      
Signal Processing  Enhanced  9     2    1       2       8      2    
Countermeasures  Suite       1     1    1       2       4      1    
                  
Staterooms                100%    20   20      80      10      
Common Areas               25%   25%    1      20       2      
Briefing Room                1          1       4       1      
Library                      1          1       4       4      
Medical Bay  10% of crew     1          1       4       2      
Workshop                     1          1       6       1      
Armoury                      1          2       2       1      
Brig                         1          1       4       0      
Low Berths                   5          5       3       0      1    
Cargo                                          14        

Large Bay  Very High Yield, Size Red                
Particle  High Technology    1  TL14    1     450     180    200      5     4

                  

                  
Crew               36              
  Command           4              
  Bridge            9              
      Pilot               3            
      Astrogator          1            
      Sensor & EW         5              
  Engineer         15              
      Engineer           11            
      Maintenance         3,8            
  Service           3              
      Admin               1,9            
      Medic               0,2575            
      Steward             0            
  Gunner            5              
  Flight                
  Troops            0

This is a pure crit fisher design. Crits will be repaired in the action step of the same round, but not destroyed systems. A fuel tank crit severity 4 is "Fuel Tanks Destroyed", you have just lost all power...

Assuming a good gunner: skill-2, augmented +1, expert system +1, INT +1, augmented +1 = +6.

At Very Long range it hits on +6[gunner] +5[software] +4[large bay] +1[accurate] +1[aid gunners] -4[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] ≈ +7, hit on 1+, crit on 7+ (58%). If the target runs out of dodges it crits on 4+ (92%).

With current rules that is often a severity 4 crit, but I believe that will be nerfed.

Current
If I achieve 8 crits there is a 50% chance of a Fuel Tank crit. ~40% that crit is a severity 4 crit. 8 / 40% = 20 crits.
The first 9 shots achieve 9 * 58% ≈ 5 crits, dodges run out, the next 16 shots achieve 16 * 92% ≈ 15 crits.
If 25 Davids fire at a capital ship, any capital ship, there is a 50% chance it is dead. I can buy ~100 Davids for each BB.

Nerfed
I need to achieve 4 fuel tank crits. One crit in 36 / 3 = 12 is a fuel tank crit. I need to achieve 48 crits.
The first 9 shots achieve 9 * 58% ≈ 5 crits, dodges run out, the next 47 shots achieve 47 * 92% ≈ 43 crits.
If ~60 Davids fire at a capital ship, any capital ship, it is very likely dead. I can buy ~100 Davids for each BB.

Conclusion:
Armoured bulkheads for the fuel seems like a good idea. The Jump drive is as likely to be hit and destroyed as the fuel, so armoured bulkheads there too. Even after the crit system is nerfed capital ships will be a chancy investment.

 

[Chas]

You mean I should give up building my battle wagon now?

Seriously though it is something that deserves its own thread to make sure Matt sees it.

For the rest of it the critical hit %s are a part of the rules I'm not familiar enough with to comment on at all. I've always assumed that somebody else got it right

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I think the crit system needs another look. Nerhesi has been talking about it, that is why I assume the current system will be nerfed.

The Davids are kind of useless against ships smaller than 10 - 50 kt or so...

 

[Nerhesi]

I like how you called them David; aptly named

Yeah the Crit severity determination needs to be changed. If nothing more than just making it every 5% or 2% of hull = severity level.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yeah the Crit severity determination needs to be changed. If nothing more than just making it every 5% or 2% of hull = severity level.

That is what I called the Nerfed rule variant. Note that the Davids still disable an equal budget battleship (or two) in a single round.

 

[Nerhesi]

Yeah the Crit severity determination needs to be changed. If nothing more than just making it every 5% or 2% of hull = severity level.

That is what I called the Nerfed rule variant. Note that the Davids still disable an equal budget battleship (or two) in a single round.

Do you see an issue with that? At first glance I dont see a problem. Given the budget similarity and the sole minded nature and vulnerabilities of the David

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Spinals are completely outdated. If a battleship can mount enough bays to crit kill 2 enemy battleships every round instead of a spinal that kills an enemy battleship every five rounds.