Empty Jump Hex Solutions: comments critiques and rants

[captainjack23]

This thread is for comments or questions about the solutions being suggested for empty hex jumps the proposed solutions !

See intitial post in that thread for details:

Poster session for Empty Jump Hexes : possible solutions.


And have fun !

 

[AKAramis]

Simplest solution, as per CT:
There is no penalty whatsoever for jumps to/from empty hexes.

Any non-use in prior periods was cultural, not technical.

 

[GamerDude]

Simplest solution, as per CT:
There is no penalty whatsoever for jumps to/from empty hexes.

Any non-use in prior periods was cultural, not technical.

I second that, and regardless of what crap anyone not with FFE/MGP tries to crap out to us.. that's how it will be in my games. [ADDED: That meant COMPANIES... like SJG, QLI, etc... I really want to hear from Marc on this, but hey... I have to wait for his email response to my list of questions on all this]

 

[captainjack23]

Simplest solution, as per CT:
There is no penalty whatsoever for jumps to/from empty hexes.

Any non-use in prior periods was cultural, not technical.

I think this is a valid solution too - Just not one I subscribe too. Why not put it in the poster thread as well ?

 

[captainjack23]

Simplest solution, as per CT:
There is no penalty whatsoever for jumps to/from empty hexes.

Any non-use in prior periods was cultural, not technical.

I second that, and regardless of what crap anyone not with FFE/MGP tries to crap out to us.. that's how it will be in my games.

I'm confused - is this me you are describing ? Also, what is FFE ?

 

[GamerDude]

I'm confused - is this me you are describing ?

You? nope... I have a great deal of respect for you, some great ideas and thoughts as well as conducting yourself like an adult

Also, what is FFE ?

Far Future Enterprises... Marc Miller's company (http://www.farfuture.net)

 

[RandyT0001]

FFE=Far Future Enterprises
MGP=Mongoose Publishing

PG is not talking about you feeding them crap about EHJ's but is referring to someone that made a dozen (or more) posts about EHJ's in the original thread that he doesn't agree with. I'm sure you can figure it out who it is.

 

[rust]

Any non-use in prior periods was cultural, not technical.

While it is doubtless a possible solution, I am not convinced that it is
a probable one: I find it difficult to imagine that any civilization would
not use a potentially useful method over a very long period of time
because of cultural reasons only.

Besides, the Vilani obviously at least sometimes used the method,
so these cultural reasons were not always strong enough to prevent
the use of the method.

 

[rust]

PG is not talking about you feeding them crap about EHJ's but is referring to someone that made a dozen (or more) posts about EHJ's in the original thread that he doesn't agree with. I'm sure you can figure it out who it is.

Yep, PG really misses no opportunity to keep that feud alive ... :roll:

I just wish he would continue by PM instead of littering threads with his
attacks.

 

[EDG]

I just wish he would continue by PM instead of littering threads with his attacks.

He's welcome to do so. I'm sure Matt would be as interested in seeing those as the tirades PG's written against me so far since I came back, which I've been reporting to him already (and I note that Matt has deleted at least one of those, so PG is on his radar).

You'll note that I haven't been responding to his posts openly, because I have no interest in taking his bait.

 

[captainjack23]

Well... no. This is the "Poster thread" right? This is the one you requested people post their "solutions". So I did. That summary is my "solution" to whatever your problem is with empty hex jumps, not a question or commentary. And my response is "there is no problem that I can see with what is established by canon as I have described in my post here".<snip> [/quote]

Okay. I stand corrected. I suppose saying : there is no problem needing a solution is a fine theory too. If that's your final word on the subject, good for you. So leave it up.

I'll remove my request....however, would it be asking to much for you to also remove your response to my request ? desire to keep cross chatter off of that thread is why I'm answering here.

 

[captainjack23]

But frankly I'm not really interested in going through this all over again in two more threads. I've spent enough of my time on this subject, and I posted my "solution" you requested, so do with it what you will.

I'm sure that your solution works fine for your own games (it doesn't seem problematic to me),

Thanks, that is helpful ! You have an eye for the problematic.

but it doesn't change the fact that it ain't canon. And all I care about when discussing this is what canon says, because I'm approaching this from the POV of "does what the officially licensed literature say about the subject make sense", not "can I get this to work for my games". And for me, yes, the officially licensed literature about empty hex jumps makes sense. Though to be honest, the canon explanation I described here would work for my games anyway, without causing any problems.

All I can honestly say is that to find you championing the argument of canonicity is.....truly surprising. I'm guessing here that for you, canon is canon, but can superceed by what you see as actual fact, such as with small worlds with dense atmospheres. Its an interesting line to hoe to, and I mean this sincerely.

Yes, in fact none of the solutions -except your nonsolution- are canon. Which seems fine for us, as we see a canon disconnect between GTIW and the standard traveller history.

So, do let us know what you find out from Loren on GTIW. Not that its going to change the game we're playing over in the other threads, just a few of the pieces...

 

[EDG]

I will ask one thing here though:

TL9


J1 is developed but only star to star jumps are possible.
Vilaii expand down their main.
Terrans may or may not use insystem jumping, but are still limited to sol system*.



TL10


The overall limit is still J1*, but now, empty jumps become possible , if difficult and or dangerous, using J1 drives.

Vilanii pass through the empty hexes to scout and establish new risk-free j1 lines and find various other races. Civilian shipping may only seldom cross these points.

Terrans jump to Barnard*, via an empty jump but need a logistic point.

Terrans encounter vilanii and immediately adopt more efficient vilani jump designs; fuel problem diminished.

Vilanii may also use logistic bases to cross similar situations.

So are you suggesting in your solution that the Terrans went from TL9 to TL10 in the space of about... 6-7 years? Because that's how long it took from them to go from discovering J1 to jumping to Barnard via the brown dwarf in IW. If you're having them jump to empty space instead, then that's a one TL leap from 9 to 10 in only 6-7 years (assuming they figured it out in 2095). And then they reached the next TL (11, where they hit J2) in 2124 (29 years later) and then reached TL 12 (J3) 114 years later around 2238 AD? (which seems a bit odd, given that they're at war and you'd think that would tend to advance technology quicker. But I guess J3 is exponentially harder to crack than J2)

Still 6-7 years for a TL 9-10 jump seems a bit quick. That said, they had to go from 9 to 11 in 35 years or so anyway...

 

[RandyT0001]

PG is not talking about you feeding them crap about EHJ's but is referring to someone that made a dozen (or more) posts about EHJ's in the original thread that he doesn't agree with. I'm sure you can figure it out who it is.

Yep, PG really misses no opportunity to keep that feud alive ... :roll:

I just wish he would continue by PM instead of littering threads with his
attacks.

It's just a confirmation that PG is burning up with extreme envy IMO.

And according to CT canon sources jumping into empty space is not permitted until the time of the Aslan border wars (Dark Nebula). The 'empty' hexes depicted on the map(s) are not necessarily empty since they may contain brown dwarfs, rogue planets, etc. which' once found through a long and difficult process, which would permit ships to jump there. So there are restrictions on jumping into and out of empty hexes in CT prior to the Aslan border wars (Dark Nebula) despite what some have said. Of course what you do in YTU is yours. What someone that writes adventures for publication in the OTU has to deal with is what has been written before.

 

[captainjack23]

I will ask one thing here though:

TL9


J1 is developed but only star to star jumps are possible.
Vilaii expand down their main.
Terrans may or may not use insystem jumping, but are still limited to sol system*.



TL10


The overall limit is still J1*, but now, empty jumps become possible , if difficult and or dangerous, using J1 drives.

Vilanii pass through the empty hexes to scout and establish new risk-free j1 lines and find various other races. Civilian shipping may only seldom cross these points.

Terrans jump to Barnard*, via an empty jump but need a logistic point.

Terrans encounter vilanii and immediately adopt more efficient vilani jump designs; fuel problem diminished.

Vilanii may also use logistic bases to cross similar situations.

So are you suggesting in your solution that the Terrans went from TL9 to TL10 in the space of about... 6-7 years? Because that's how long it took from them to go from discovering J1 to jumping to Barnard via the brown dwarf in IW. If you're having them jump to empty space instead, then that's a one TL leap from 9 to 10 in only 6-7 years (assuming they figured it out in 2095). And then they reached the next TL (11, where they hit J2) in 2124 (29 years later) and then reached TL 12 (J3) 114 years later around 2238 AD? (which seems a bit odd, given that they're at war and you'd think that would tend to advance technology quicker. But I guess J3 is exponentially harder to crack than J2)

Still 6-7 years for a TL 9-10 jump seems a bit quick. That said, they had to go from 9 to 11 in 35 years or so anyway...

Hmmm. Good question. Is the date for jump drive being invented, a hard date , or inferred ?

 

[EDG]

All I can honestly say is that to find you championing the argument of canonicity is.....truly surprising. I'm guessing here that for you, canon is canon, but can superceed by what you see as actual fact, such as with small worlds with dense atmospheres. Its an interesting line to hoe to, and I mean this sincerely.

My view is this:

The planet stuff doesn't change anything in practice - Regina is still Regina whether it's a satellite of a gas giant orbiting a star with a close white dwarf companion that should have fried it to death millions of years ago, or whether it's an earthlike planet in its own right orbiting a normal sun-like star without the white dwarf companion.

But changing the history or tech development does change the rest of the setting pretty significantly.

 

[captainjack23]

Though since you're asking people to move things around, maybe you should ask Aramis to move his "solution" from the other thread to this one where it belongs too?

I did ask that earlier. I guess you missed it ? Posts are flying kind of fast.

I can't make him, though, and wouldn't want to.

 

[captainjack23]

All I can honestly say is that to find you championing the argument of canonicity is.....truly surprising. I'm guessing here that for you, canon is canon, but can superceed by what you see as actual fact, such as with small worlds with dense atmospheres. Its an interesting line to hoe to, and I mean this sincerely.

My view is this:

The planet stuff doesn't change anything in practice - Regina is still Regina whether it's a satellite of a gas giant orbiting a star with a close white dwarf companion that should have fried it to death millions of years ago, or whether it's an earthlike planet in its own right orbiting a normal sun-like star without the white dwarf companion.

But changing the history or tech development does change the rest of the setting pretty significantly.

Makes sense to me........its a lot more work, in some ways, to integrate fact into fictional canon and remain consistent, but, as I said, its your row. Good luck with it.

 

[captainjack23]

BTW, EDG -thanks for removing the other post from the poster thread -how'd ya make it go away so cleanly though ?

 

[EDG]

BTW, EDG -thanks for removing the other post from the poster thread -how'd ya make it go away so cleanly though ?

Erm, the delete button?

You should be able to delete your own posts, there should be an X in a button on the right along with edit and quote.