Dodging to another square

[Supplement Four]

On page 173 of the 2E rulebook, it says, "A dodging character needs at least one adjacent square to either be unoccupied or be occupied by friendly creatures to be able to dodge effectively. He need not necessarily move into the space as part of his dodge but he does need a certain amount of room to move around in."

That reads to me as if the dodging character has a choice of moving into the adjacent square.

On page 205 of the 2E rulebook, the Dance Aside combat maneuver is discussed, basically stating that if the character has DEX 13, and if the attack is less than half the Dodge Defence, then the dodging character can make a five foot step into another square.

So, my question here is: If a character has DEX 12 or less, then why does he need that extra space described in the first paragraph? He can't move into that square anyway. So, why put the restriction?

 

[Teriudin]

Sure does. If you're surrounded, you can't dodge effectively. That's it.

If you have good dex, you can dodge so effectively that you end up actually escaping if you choose the dance aside move.

 

[Supplement Four]

Sure does. If you're surrounded, you can't dodge effectively. That's it.

In other words...in order to dodge effectively, you need 10 feet, or two adjacent squares.

And, this implies that you will sometimes be 10 feet away.

But, the Dance Aside manevuer says that you cannot move 10 feet away unless you've got DEX 13 or higher.

So...how does that make sense again?

 

[Vortigern]

One says you need the space to be able to dodge. The other actually allows you to move permanently to the other square, which is not the same thing as needing the space to dodge?

To me it makes sense?

 

[Spade]

Its not that you are dodging into the next square by default, its that within your own square, there's a tiny window of space which isn't swinging a blade at you.

Its a bit of a strange rule, but it encourages the notion that you need more than a high Dexterity to survive.

- Spade

 

[Verderer]

Sounds pretty reasonable to me: if you're surrounded, you can't do much dodging. I don't think the intention is to go beyond that, you don't actually need a full extra 10 feet to dodge, just a little more space than the square you currently occupy. But since space is measured by squares...

 

[Supplement Four]

Its not that you are dodging into the next square by default, its that within your own square, there's a tiny window of space which isn't swinging a blade at you.

Your interpretation sounds like a handwave, but I'll buy it for my own sense of logic.

What you're saying is...the character needs a direction to retreat. He needs to be able to dodge in a direction. Which is why an empty square is needed.

Yeah, I'll buy that.

The rule on page 173 of the 2E rule book seems to refer to space needed in which to move. Not, as you say, a direction from which no attack comes.

The actual rule says: He need not necessarily move into the space as part of his dodge but he does need a certain amount of room to move around in.

This sounds like it is directed at having the required space to move around. You can't dodge unless you've got room.

For me, the actual rule makes sense but the justification of it doesn't.

 

[Supplement Four]

Sounds pretty reasonable to me: if you're surrounded, you can't do much dodging. I don't think the intention is to go beyond that, you don't actually need a full extra 10 feet to dodge, just a little more space than the square you currently occupy. But since space is measured by squares...

OK, let's take your explanation and examine it.

Charlie dodges, and with his dodge, he moves back 6 feet. Game rule-wise, Charlie moved out of one square into the next on his dodge.

Ah, but Charlie only has DEX 10. And, the Dance Aside rule says that you've got to have DEX 13 to be able to move to that second square on a dodge.

So, the two rules seem to conflict (unless you use, as I am, the handwave explanation above).

 

[Sutek]

You've got Dodge all wrong. All it's suggesting is that, in order to Dodge, you have to have room to rock, shufflem bob and weave your way around. What they decided to do was state that this is possible if you have room, but the said it in a better and more clear way by defining room as having a clear or friendly adjacent space.

However there no actual moving involved. You are standing in the starting square the whole time, but you don't have a beligerent Pict threatening you right, or whatever. Same thing if you're against a wall or in a corner - it get's tough to do all that bobbing and weaving when you're boxed in.

Now, Dance Aside grants someone with 13+ DEX the ability to actually move five feet, if they are in a position to Dodge.

See?

 

[Garet]

You've got Dodge all wrong. All it's suggesting is that, in order to Dodge, you have to have room to rock, shufflem bob and weave your way around. What they decided to do was state that this is possible if you have room, but the said it in a better and more clear way by defining room as having a clear or friendly adjacent space.

However there no actual moving involved. You are standing in the starting square the whole time, but you don't have a beligerent Pict threatening you right, or whatever. Same thing if you're against a wall or in a corner - it get's tough to do all that bobbing and weaving when you're boxed in.

Now, Dance Aside grants someone with 13+ DEX the ability to actually move five feet, if they are in a position to Dodge.

See?

This is how i use dodge.

 

[Supplement Four]

You've got Dodge all wrong. All it's suggesting is that, in order to Dodge, you have to have room to rock, shufflem bob and weave your way around. What they decided to do was state that this is possible if you have room, but the said it in a better and more clear way by defining room as having a clear or friendly adjacent space.

However there no actual moving involved. You are standing in the starting square the whole time, but you don't have a beligerent Pict threatening you right, or whatever. Same thing if you're against a wall or in a corner - it get's tough to do all that bobbing and weaving when you're boxed in.

Now, Dance Aside grants someone with 13+ DEX the ability to actually move five feet, if they are in a position to Dodge.

See?

No, not really. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't "see".

Dodge means you are shuffling about, avoiding blows. I get that.

You need room to shuffle about and avoid blows. I get that, too.

If you are surrounded by 7 foes, but the square directly behind you is open, then you can still Dodge all 7 foes. I get that.

What that means is: You will sometimes use the space behind you in which to Dodge. Your square and the square behind you is your "Dodge Space". You'll be dancing about, avoiding blows, within that 5' x 10' area.

Now...

This means that sometimes you Take a couple of steps back and Dodge waaayy back, to avoid a blow. Then, you'll move back up as you attack. And, back and forth.

By requiring that other space it means that you will sometimes use that space in order to Dodge.

No matter what your DEX is, you can Dodge within that 5' x 10' space...your sqaure and the square behind you.

Now...

But, you can't stay in that square behind you unless you've got DEX 13.

This doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Ichabod]

If you really must have some sort of realism basis for the game mechanic, you could think of it this way: You never dodge into the square. When there's an open square, you can have a "blind" (angle of safety) spot and concentrate on dodging attacks that don't arise from that blind spot. When completely surrounded, you can't maintain enough perception and/or skill at avoiding attacks to simply move out of the path of every attack. However, you can swing your weapons around in arcs that cover every angle of attack.

 

[Teriudin]

Basically, you're ducking and weaving when you dodge. You are not impeding any of the blades. If you have 4 mooks surrounding you (the minimum needed to surround) there is no place to dance toward without brining you closer to another sword. Mechanically, by "dodging" north from a south attack, the north mook should get some bonus (and vice versa). The game designers decided that the bonus would be "no dodge at all"

Dance aside, a completely seperate combat manuever, lets you actually move instead of just ducking and weaving. Instead of weaving to barely avoid an attack, your dodge is so quick as to allow you to 5-foot step away from an akward attack.

Explain it however you want, the rules for Dance Aside and being surrounded really have no relationship to each other.

 

[Supplement Four]

If you have 4 mooks surrounding you (the minimum needed to surround) there is no place to dance toward without brining you closer to another sword.

I thought "surround" meant fill every square around you (8 squares).

Is there a rule that says 4 opponents means you're surrounded?

 

[Teriudin]

That's a good point, I may have imported some of my minis gaming into Conan subconsciously. I always play that if two enemies are adjacent and diagonal, you can't walk through their corner as a diagonal move.

X = Open Square
o = Mook
Q = Our Hero

XoX
oQX
XXX

Cannot 5 foot step into:

QoX
oXX
XXX

Can anyone confirm or deny that 4 people (no diagonals) are all that is needed to surround?

i.e

XoX
oQo
XoX

?

Thanks

 

[Sutek]

What that means is: You will sometimes use the space behind you in which to Dodge. Your square and the square behind you is your "Dodge Space". You'll be dancing about, avoiding blows, within that 5' x 10' area.

No. Totally incorrect. All the rules state is that there must be a free or friendly space in order to Dodge. No movement is involved. That is handled by either the standard Move Action (inwhich you can travel a number of squares) or the 5'Move, which is a tactical shift to an adjacent square.

"4 mooks surrounding you" was an attempt to explain, once again, a very basic rule of the combat system in a way that he could also draw you a diagram, Sup4. But, also, ....yes, 4 oponents technically "surround" a single foe, but cause all of the squares around that single foe are threatened - neither free or freindly. Now, it only takes two opponents to gain a multiple combatant bonus, but that's getting onto a differnt topic.

Dodge does not allow movement. You simply are required to have a free/open or freinfly/non-threatened space in order to activate your Dodge Bonus for defense, otherwise, you get a -2 penalty.

Maybe you're having difficulty with the way it's written in 2nd edition, so here's the rule from the Atlantean edition:

"A dodging character needs at least one adjacent square either unoccupied, or occupied by freindly creatures, to be able to dodge effectively. He need not necessarily move into the space as part of his dodge but he does need a certain amount of room to move around in. If he does not have at least one adjacent unoccupied or friendly square, he has a -2 penalty to his Dodge Defence."

In oter words, you can usea move action and declare a to dodge, but you don't have to. You need not move at all. However you do need to have at least one adjacent square meeting the unoccupied/freindly conditions, or your Dodge DV is at -2.

Clear?

 

[Supplement Four]

No. Totally incorrect. All the rules state is that there must be a free or friendly space in order to Dodge. No movement is involved.

Well, how does that make sense? Dodging is moving, yes? It's moving around, avoiding blows. And, this avoidance of blows is done within 5' squares. The game is saying that you need at least two connecting 5' squares in which to dodge effectively or you get a -2 penalty.

"4 mooks surrounding you" was an attempt to explain, once again, a very basic rule of the combat system in a way that he could also draw you a diagram, Sup4.

Hey, if you meant this in a shitty way, that's not called for. I'm just trying to understand a rule here--something that's not clicking for me.

So, if you don't want to help me understand it, then please don't post.

(And, if you didn't mean that in a shitty way, I may have misread it. But, that's the way it comes across to me.)

But, also, ....yes, 4 oponents technically "surround" a single foe, but cause all of the squares around that single foe are threatened - neither free or freindly.

So, "surrounded" means all square esither occupied or threatened, not just occupied?

Now, it only takes two opponents to gain a multiple combatant bonus, but that's getting onto a differnt topic.

Yep. Know about that. Makes sense. Different topic, agreed.

Dodge does not allow movement. You simply are required to have a free/open or freinfly/non-threatened space in order to activate your Dodge Bonus for defense, otherwise, you get a -2 penalty.

Dodging is inheritly moving. You have to move to dodge. Tactically, I understand that movement is taking place within one 5' square, but the dodging character is considered to be moving.

So saying "Dodge does not allow movement" is incorrect, but I suspect you meant to say "Dodge does not allow movement to another 5' square."

Maybe you're having difficulty with the way it's written in 2nd edition, so here's the rule from the Atlantean edition:

"A dodging character needs at least one adjacent square either unoccupied, or occupied by freindly creatures, to be able to dodge effectively. He need not necessarily move into the space as part of his dodge but he does need a certain amount of room to move around in. If he does not have at least one adjacent unoccupied or friendly square, he has a -2 penalty to his Dodge Defence."

It was cut-n-pasted into 2E. That's the same paragraph I'm working with.

First off, note that it doesn't say anything about "threatened" squares as you did above. It talks about squares being either occupied or unoccupied.

That means, if you've got 7 empty squares around you as you fight your opponent, and then all 7 are filled up with enemies, you get your -2 penalty.

If you've only got 6 squares filled with enemies, then you don't get the -2 penalty.

Clear?

Not crystal.

Here's why.

Let's say your character is attacked in his room in the inn. The attacker makes a successful Force Back maneuver, forcing you into the open closet. The closet is a 5' x 5' room, with one opening--a curtain closes it off from the rest of the room.

You are now in the closet, and your attacker is fighting you through the opening. By the game rules, you don't have an open square--you don't have enough room in which to dodge. So, you suffer the -2 penalty.

I get this. It's cramped in there.

But, what does this imply?

It implies that you need more than 5 feet in which to Dodge. It's movement based.

And, if it is movement based, then the Dodge rule and the Dance Aside are in conflict.



What's clear to me is the rule. I've understood them all along. I just don't understand the reasoning behind the rule.

That's what I'm trying to figure.

 

[Sutek]

No. Totally incorrect. All the rules state is that there must be a free or friendly space in order to Dodge. No movement is involved.

Well, how does that make sense? Dodging is moving, yes? It's moving around, avoiding blows. And, this avoidance of blows is done within 5' squares. The game is saying that you need at least two connecting 5' squares in which to dodge effectively or you get a -2 penalty.

Dodging is NOT moving. It's Dodging. Moving is going from square to square, and dodging is a combat defence.

Hey, if you meant this in a shitty way, that's not called for. I'm just trying to understand a rule here--something that's not clicking for me.

So, if you don't want to help me understand it, then please don't post.

(And, if you didn't mean that in a shitty way, I may have misread it. But, that's the way it comes across to me.)

I just don't understand what you're missing, so...yeah, it was a little sarcastic.

So, "surrounded" means all square esither occupied or threatened, not just occupied?

DUDE...lol. Surrounded means that there's people surrounding you! There is no "surround rule", just Multiple Combatants. Focus.

Dodge does not allow movement. You simply are required to have a free/open or freinfly/non-threatened space in order to activate your Dodge Bonus for defense, otherwise, you get a -2 penalty.

Dodging is inheritly moving. You have to move to dodge. Tactically, I understand that movement is taking place within one 5' square, but the dodging character is considered to be moving.

So saying "Dodge does not allow movement" is incorrect, but I suspect you meant to say "Dodge does not allow movement to another 5' square."

No. Dodging is not inherently moving. Not at all. You need a clear/friendly adjacent space to dodge without taking a -2 penalty to your Dodge defence. Full stop, end of story, no movement at all.

Maybe you're having difficulty with the way it's written in 2nd edition, so here's the rule from the Atlantean edition:

"A dodging character needs at least one adjacent square either unoccupied, or occupied by freindly creatures, to be able to dodge effectively. He need not necessarily move into the space as part of his dodge but he does need a certain amount of room to move around in. If he does not have at least one adjacent unoccupied or friendly square, he has a -2 penalty to his Dodge Defence."

It was cut-n-pasted into 2E. That's the same paragraph I'm working with.

First off, note that it doesn't say anything about "threatened" squares as you did above. It talks about squares being either occupied or unoccupied.

That means, if you've got 7 empty squares around you as you fight your opponent, and then all 7 are filled up with enemies, you get your -2 penalty.

If you've only got 6 squares filled with enemies, then you don't get the -2 penalty

Look.

You occupy a center square around whic ther are 8 squares. With me? Look at a grid if necessary.

Eight (8) opponents can occupy surrounding squares. If seven (7) squares are occupied, one square is unoccupied, and thus Dodge Defence is not penalized. Alternatively, if any of those eight (8) squares is occupied by a friendly creature (fellow party member, your personal warhound or horse, the non-combatant princess you're trying to rescue, etc.) then your Dodge Defence is likewise not penalized.

When choosing to utilize one's Dodge Defence, you are not afforded any bonus movement. Selecting between Parry and Dodge is a tactical selection that the player makes whenever he has a change to defend himslef, so choosing one or the other can go back and forth during a single round versus multiple forms of attack directed towards the defender.

There is no mention of "movement", the word "move" is never used, and, in fact, Move Actions are handled in a separate section altogether, which likewise makes no mention of "dodge". Now, the selection to dodge or parry can occur during a Move Action, because you can change your Defence choice based on whatever attack is being directed toward you. Usually you're going to stick to one option, your highest. But it still only functions as a means of defence towards attacks, and has nothing to do with movement.

There's a fluff paragraph that tries to discuss the abstract choice between Parry and Dodge, and one sentance sticks out, and may not appear in 2nd edition.

"Acharacter who is dodging is more likely to make use of his knowledge of his enemy's reach to stay just out of distance, rather than simply hurling himslef to one side."

Dodging = not moving, standing one's ground, and trying to stay out of reach of enemy attacks.

Moving = hurling one's self to one side.

Here's why.

Let's say your character is attacked in his room in the inn. The attacker makes a successful Force Back maneuver, forcing you into the open closet. The closet is a 5' x 5' room, with one opening--a curtain closes it off from the rest of the room.

You are now in the closet, and your attacker is fighting you through the opening. By the game rules, you don't have an open square--you don't have enough room in which to dodge. So, you suffer the -2 penalty.

I get this. It's cramped in there.

But, what does this imply?

It implies that you need more than 5 feet in which to Dodge. It's movement based.

And, if it is movement based, then the Dodge rule and the Dance Aside are in conflict.

No....it's "adjacent square" based. (lol) It's a rule that very simply states that you need a clear or friendly adjacent square in order to use your full Dodge Defence, because if those two criteria don't exist, your Dodge Defence is at -2. That's it. No movement.

In your example, the Bull Rush that pushed you into the closet was a move-based attack, and you could have chosen to parry or Dodge it. Presumably, whatever was chosen didn't work, and your foe pushed you into a closet. Now you have no open adjacent squares, so your Dodge Defence suffers a -2, so you may have to select Parry if it affords you a better Defence score.

I'd say it was binary, if not for the fact that ther are two criterea (hehe), but still, there's nothing to do with movement, you don't dodge into adjacent spaces, so you don't have this magical 5' x 10' space your locked in on.

Put this another way: You have two (2) allies, and three (3) villains pressing in on the three of you. They have you in a 15' x 15' room in your inn, in the corner of which is a small 5' x 5' closet next to your ally to your right. Behind you is a wall, so you cannot go south any further, and "up" here is north. Let's start a combat.

(O-open, V=villain, A=ally, Y=you, C=closet)

OOO
VVV
AYAC

The ally to your left has a wall behind him, a wall to the left of him and a villain in front of him, ut he can still dodge because you occupy an adjacent space next to him, and you are frindly to him. You can dodge unpenalized because you hav two allies adjacent to you, and your ally to your right has the best situation because he not only has you as an ally adjacent to him, but he also has an open adjacent square in the form of the closet. Everyone dodges without penalty.

But something goes amiss. The center villain Bull Rushes and pushes the right-hand ally into the closet and follows into his former space, the right most villain takes a 5' step to occupy the center square and, it turns out that the left hand ally is, in fact, a SPY!!!

OOO
VVO
VYVA

Not much changes in the Dodge departmetn though. Even you still have a clear adjacent space diagonal to you, so you are still able to Dodge without penalty.

Now...four (4) guards arrive! They are the blokes you were drinking with last night and have come to your aid.

GGG
VVG
VYVA

However, still, everyone Dodges without penalty because everyone in the room has at least a square occupied by a friendly combatant.

Now do you see? No movement involved. Besides, it's only in a situation like this...


VVV
VYV
VVV

...or this....

VVV
VVV
VYV

...in that same 15' x 15' room, where you take a -2 Dodge penalty.

What's clear to me is the rule. I've understood them all along. I just don't understand the reasoning behind the rule.

That's what I'm trying to figure.

Well, you don't get the rule. Dodging has nothing to do with movement into adjacent squares. You simply need a clear or friendly square to avoid the penealty.

I hope that's clear now.

 

[Supplement Four]

I just don't understand what you're missing, so...yeah, it was a little sarcastic.

DUDE...lol. Surrounded means that there's people surrounding you! There is no "surround rule", just Multiple Combatants. Focus.

I don't appreciate your tone at all. There's no need to speak down to me like that. I asked you not to post if you're only doing it to make yourself feel superior.

So, end of discussion with you. I'm not going to sit here and allow you speak to me like that.

If you want to help, then help is welcomed. But, if you insist on being a shit-head, I don't want to discuss things with you.

Got it?

 

[Sutek]

My "tone" is percieved by you. I admited only to making a sarcastic comment. Ease up. I'm trying to help you here, but you get defensive when anyone tells you that you are wrong. I'm sorry that you feel so offended, but I also hope that my explanation finally helped you get this straight.

Option 2: Toss the -2 penalty and allow Dodging all the time. Just be clear that there is no movement involved.

Jeez. I didn't even want to bring up using the Dodge Defence along with a move action or something.