Dodging bullets

[Utgardloki]

While watching an episode of a TV show set in Napoleanic times, (Jack of All Trades,) there was a line that started me thinking. One of the characters said "You can dodge one bullet, but can you dodge ten?"

Technically, I believe that it is impossible for a human being to dodge any bullets. But a person can make it harder to shoot him.

My thoughts for the Runequest game would be to consider all attackers using ranged weapons (arrows or guns) as one opponent for the purpose of dodging, with one dodge roll made by the defender and all attackers needing to beat that. If a person is being attacked by both ranged and melee (and I've always used rules for friendly fire to discourage that sort of thing, but it happens), the defender decides whether to use a particular dodge action against all the ranged attackers, or one of the melee attackers.

I suppose that for Runequest friendly fire rules, it could work as such: if a defender successfully dodges a ranged attack, anyone in melee range of the defender must succeed at a dodge roll or get hit -- first melee attacker who fails gets hit. If all melee attackers succeed in their dodge roll, then nobody gets hit.

Unfortunately, I fear this may be just a little bit too clunky, making shooting into melee not only dangerous, but annoying to the players as well.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Id just impose a penalty on fire, if the character is moving evasively.

This would be movement deliberately towards cover or similar. As a general rule, on a battlefield, moving around actually makes you an easier target.

 

[Utgardloki]

Is that because to move around you have to give up your cover? I am trying to think of a scenario where moving, assuming you had no cover to begin with, would make it easier to hit you.

In the old Top Secret rules, ignoring bonuses for cover or getting prone, a standing target was easier to hit than a running target, and a running target was easier to hit than a target that was zig-zagging erratically to avoid getting hit. Of course, if you just dropped to the ground prone, you could get a bonus for being prone -- but then you'd wouldn't be going any where.

I suppose if you really wanted to get detailed, crawling around should make you easier to hit than laying prone.

It seems that dodge rules would cover moving evasively. Someone who is more skilled would be better at dodging than someone who is not skilled. This also encourages heroes who have maxed out dodge, although it might not be entirely realistic.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Anyone who is not moving in a firefight is likely to be on the ground or crouching behind something. Standing up in plain sight means you die, plain and simple.

Hence, any movement will make you more likely to be a target.

Of course in a man to man situation, running is better than standing around

 

[Utgardloki]

Anyone who is not moving in a firefight is likely to be on the ground or crouching behind something. Standing up in plain sight means you die, plain and simple.

Not in 1801, you don't. But that was discussed on another thread.

Hmmm, there should be rules to take into account the accuracy of the gun. In the old Top Secret game, each gun had an accuracy modifier, which was added to or subtracted from the chance to hit. I'd say that would be worth taking into account.

Another thing to consider is that on a modern battlefield, automatic weapons would essentially set up an area of effect fire, requiring the target to "dive for cover" per the MRQ rulebook. I'd rule that a character who did not or could not "dive for cover" would not get a dodge roll against automatic weapons fire, and thus take full damage. In Runequest, that would be fatal. But that would not be dodging 10 bullets -- that would be dodging 30-100 bullets.

 

[Rasta]

Technically, I believe that it is impossible for a human being to dodge any bullets. But a person can make it harder to shoot him.

I believe this would be true with bullets as you can't really see the bullet and they are moving at extremely fast velocities, I believe you could dodge arrows and such slower moving projectiles.

I suppose that for Runequest friendly fire rules, it could work as such: if a defender successfully dodges a ranged attack, anyone in melee range of the defender must succeed at a dodge roll or get hit -- first melee attacker who fails gets hit. If all melee attackers succeed in their dodge roll, then nobody gets hit.

I've always like the RQ3 rule of fireing into a crowd. This could also work if friendlies are in the general line of fire.

Your chances to hit a specific target go down, but hitting something is almost gauranteed (when fireing into a crowd).

I only apply friendly fire rules if the attacker misses their target, or if there is someone in the direct line of fire due to a sucessful dodge.

Id just impose a penalty on fire, if the character is moving evasively.

I agree. I think there are rules to this effect.

This would be movement deliberately towards cover or similar. As a general rule, on a battlefield, moving around actually makes you an easier target.

Perhaps on a modern battlefield, assuming the converse is hiding behind cover. If you are standing upright with no cover in front of you, it will always be easier to hit a stationary target rather than a moving one. This is true with guns as well.

It seems that dodge rules would cover moving evasively. Someone who is more skilled would be better at dodging than someone who is not skilled.

Assuming they are aware of where the missile is comming from, then I'd say yes.

Though practically, nobody can actively dodge multiple missiles, unless you are from the movie Hero.

I would do it like such: Normal movement give -10 to being hit, and additionaly you may dodge if you have enough CA.

Sprinting gives a -15 to 20 to being hit, but you may not dodge.

Or you can hold your ground and dodge each misile as it is fired, which even a high DEX character would only be able to dodge three at most.

 

[havercake lad]

I generally give the character a chance to duck reach cover with an appropiate roll. they can also run, zig-zag etc to decrease chance s of opponents.
If caught flat-footed I generally let them need a critical to avoid a fast bullet etc.
At peril of threadrift ..... A good way to avoid someone hitting you is for someone to fire /shoot back at them.
In the real world being in danger often throws accuracy out of the window.
How many rules or GMs have ever come up with a system for this. What the hell most people are playing heroes ( and presumably some villains have nerves of steel. ), but I think NPCs often deserve a penalty for being under fire or the presumed threat of it.

 

[Utgardloki]

I turned on the Military Channel, and that made me think about what should happen if multiple machine guns cover an area where a PC happens to be. Machine guns would probably have to be considered an Area of Effect attack, that would require a Dive for Cover manuever to avoid full damage.

If there are multiple machine guns shooting at the same area, should someone have to make multiple Dodge rolls to Dive for Cover, or should the person just make one Dodge roll, with a penalty, taking more damage if she fails?

My thought is to do the latter, and also allow a PC to use a Hero point to automatically Dive.

As for danger throwing accuracy out the window: my thought would be to allow characters to double their weapons % when they are not under threat. This makes it really bad if you have to face archers whom you and your allies can not attack, because they all get double chances to hit you. If at least one person can launch counter fire, they go back down to normal.

The same rule could also apply to melee attacks, if you are not yourself under threat. If you can attack, then things are done as normal, whether you do attack or not. But if you either can not or will not effectively attack, and your attacker knows he, she can double her effective skill.

As a note: in the commentary on the Dark Angel DVD, the director said that even the superhuman character Max could not actually dodge a bullet, but she could misdirect her attacker so that she is not in the place where he fires.

 

[Osentalka]

Of course can you dodge bullets... if xyou play in the MATRIX setting.


I think it depends on the kind of bullet shooting weapon, and the distance.

I am sure that it is possible (not easy, but possible) to dodge a bulltet fired by a muscet, from 50 meters or more afar.

I am sure that it isn´t possible to dodge a 45er bullet fired by a modern gun from 5 meters afar.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Many stated that Samurai masters were able to dodge bullets during WW2. The dodgers stated they were dodging the attacker, not the bullet.

You cannot dodge a high-velocity bullet once it has left the gun barrel, but between the moment a gunman decides to fire and the moment his finger pulls the trigger there is a small span of time when you cannot change your aim if the target moves. A fighter who is very skilled at "reading" his opponent's combat actions could, very theoretically, use it to react. But this would call a big penalty, -50% or more.

There could also be a Legendary Ability: dodge bullets at no penalty. Requires both Dodge and Martial arts at 90%+.

 

[Faelan Niall]

Sounds like someone has read one too many Destroyer novels, or watched Remo Williams one too many times.

 

[Utgardloki]

From what I read, a human can't even dodge arrows. she could perhaps dodge javelins that were thrown, but something as fast as an arrow launched from a primitive bow would be going too fast for her to move out of the way, unless she was an over-the-top heroine like Xena (legendary ability).

But even if you can't dodge the missile, you can take an effort to be where the missile is not, which would be simplest to represent as a Dodge roll. I considered whether there should be a separate skill Dodge (Missile) and Dodge (Melee). But people tend to argue against having too many skills.

One option would be to have an Evasive Manuever skill which would be used against all ranged missiles fired at the PC in one round (one CA to activate Evasive Manuever, which is treated as a Dodge roll vs all who fire missile weapons at the PC in that round), and then a person could use Dodge CAs against individual marksmen. So Evasive Manuever means you are moving erratically so that gunmen (or archers) can't predict where you'll be. Dodge, applied against gunmen, means you are watching the guy and jumping/ducking aside at the last moment.

In a cinematic game, one could perhaps use both Evasive Manuever and Dodge against one opponent. In a more realistic game, the PC would have to use either one or the other in one round.

You can't Dodge or use Evasive Manuever against someone with a machine gun, because the machine gunner is not aiming his attacks. The only thing you can do there is Dive for Cover. If you don't have cover, then half damage rules would apply, which would probably still kill you. In a cinematic game, legendary abilities could be available which can help you out.

 

[havercake lad]

Many stated that Samurai masters were able to dodge bullets during WW2. The dodgers stated they were dodging the attacker, not the bullet.

You cannot dodge a high-velocity bullet once it has left the gun barrel, but between the moment a gunman decides to fire and the moment his finger pulls the trigger there is a small span of time when you cannot change your aim if the target moves. A fighter who is very skilled at "reading" his opponent's combat actions could, very theoretically, use it to react. But this would call a big penalty, -50% or more.

There could also be a Legendary Ability: dodge bullets at no penalty. Requires both Dodge and Martial arts at 90%+.

OK with superhuman stuff for fantasy, I've no problems with this and the rules you suggest, great idea..
re 'Samurai Masters' dodging bullets... bet they never demonstrated it in a dojo !!
Similar tricks were tried by Chinese 'Boxers' and American Indian 'Ghost Dancers' , history and the laws of physics shows how well placed their mystic beliefs fitted into realife warfare.
Lots of incidents are misinterpreted by witnesses in the stress and confusion of battle. During the Falklands conflict some Argentines insisted they had seen British soldiers in bomb and bullet proof clothing picking themselves up after being hit with bullets. As no flak jackets were being worn at the time in these incidents clearly the British infantrey men were not crucially hit or more likely the Argentine eye witnesses were only assuming that their bullets were in fact on target.
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[soltakss]

It's a game. If you want people to be able to heroically dodge bullets then let them.

I wouldn't make it a normal ability, but a Legendary Ability seems reasonable to me.

 

[Utgardloki]

Thinking about my ideas some more:

The proposed Evasive Manuevers skill would apply to all ranged attacks, but would take an entire round, not just one Combat Action, and require that the person using the skill actually move at least five meters in that round. Alternatively, a person using Evasive Manuevers could use that skill at 1/2 for the cost of one Combat Action, and use all other skills at 1/2 during that round (such as dodge or attack rolls).

Evasive Manuevers can be used without training, and defaults to DEX + POW - SIZ. Pretty much anybody can figure out that it is harder to hit you if you are moving erratically.

Simply running imposes a penalty to ranged attacks against you equal to -1 for every meter moved in that round.

Old firearms, such as the kinds of muskets available in 1801, would have a penalty to attack. Rifles would be a lot more accurate, with well-made rifles even offering a bonus, but only up to the rifleman's base % in the skill, i.e. even the best-made rifle can not help you if you don't know what you're doing with it.

Also, it seems reasonable to impose a -50% penalty to dodging missile attacks, whether guns or arrows, because you are not just getting out of the way, but instead trying to mislead the attacker into shooting at the wrong spot. I could make a separate skill, but I think the -50% penalty works better.

Using my specialization rules, you can learn Dodge (Gunfire), which does not have the -50% penalty, but also only applies to gunfire.

On the one hand, these rules still make it easier to dodge gunfire than it would be in a game like GURPS, but Runequest does not have a provision for difficult skills like GURPS does. The closest thing I can think of is having Dodge (Gunfire) default to 1/4 the normal default for Dodge, thereby making it more difficult to become reasonably competent at this skill.